Orthodox Saints

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='willguy' post='47864' date='Oct 27 2003, 02:06 PM']Is it wrong for a Catholic to pray to a saint of the Eastern Orthodoxy?[/quote]
Nope, it is not wrong at all. In fact, Eastern Catholics venerate Orthodox saints all the time:

St. Gregory Palamas, herald of grace, pray for us.
St. Mark of Ephesus, pray for us.
St. Seraphim of Sarov, pray for us.
St. Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain, pray for us.
St. John Maximovitch, pray for us.
St. Sergius of Radonezh, pray for us.

Through the prayers of our Holy Fathers . . .

O Holy Paraclete, Giver of Life, Eternal God: Mercifully bestow on us the Grace of the Life-giving Energies of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ; and let us live as faithful children of the Light, so that we – finally beholding the unfading beauty of the Vision of the uncreated Light, becoming partakers by Grace of the Divine Nature, and being transformed into the glorious Likeness of our Creator – may on the awesome Day of Judgment be reckoned among the august company of His Mother, our Lady and Queen, and all others in whom the Love of God has been perfected, and worship and bask forever in the refulgence of the true Glory. Amen.

Edited May 19, 2008 by Apotheoun

[kujo]

[quote name='ICTHUS' post='48583' date='Oct 28 2003, 11:01 PM']I have a question:

Is it alright to ask for the intercession of Protestant martyrs? (Such as the three teenagers who gave up their lives for Christ at the Columbine massacre?)[/quote]

I don't see why not. Saints are people who got into heaven. I think that Christ would look kindly on those whose dying words testified to His Glory. I wish I had that strength...I can't even go through the supermarket without upsetting our Lord.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='kujo' post='1533356' date='May 19 2008, 08:59 AM']I don't see why not. Saints are people who got into heaven. I think that Christ would look kindly on those whose dying words testified to His Glory.[/quote]


I think to an extent I disagree with you. I mean as Amarkich quoted Pope Eugenius IV...we cannot be sure that someone who died for Christ's name is in heaven if they refused to enter into the Body of Christ through his True Catholic Church. I mean where to we draw the line if not within the Catholic Church? I think the teaching of the Church on the issue is pretty explicit: Salvation exists within the Catholic Church. If (any) exceptions exist...its by an extraordinary grace of Christ that we are not privy to knowing about. Should we pray to the Cathars who died 'in Christ's name" even though they had a warped gnostic christian worldview? What about the Arians or the Abyssinians? I guess I just think its pointless to try wasting prayers and intercessions on people who could be in hell for all we know when the Church has declared so many saints that have our back in heaven already. That's my 2 cents.

Peace.

Edited May 19, 2008 by Veridicus

[kujo]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1533490' date='May 19 2008, 01:20 PM']I think to an extent I disagree with you. I mean as Amarkich quoted Pope Eugenius IV...we cannot be sure that someone who died for Christ's name is in heaven if they refused to enter into the Body of Christ through his True Catholic Church. I mean where to we draw the line if not within the Catholic Church? I think the teaching of the Church on the issue is pretty explicit: Salvation exists within the Catholic Church. If (any) exceptions exist...its by an extraordinary grace of Christ that we are not privy to knowing about. Should we pray to the Cathars who died 'in Christ's name" even though they had a warped gnostic christian worldview? What about the Arians or the Abyssinians? I guess I just think its pointless to try wasting prayers and intercessions on people who could be in hell for all we know when the Church has declared so many saints that have our back in heaven already. That's my 2 cents.

Peace.[/quote]

I think that Protestants get into heaven. You show me something that says otherwise and I'll consider it. Until then, anyone who dies testifying that Christ is Lord gets in, IMHO.

[praying4carmel]

[quote name='M.SIGGA' post='48353' date='Oct 28 2003, 02:31 PM']If the E.Orthodox ever returned to the Church, wouldn't we have to accept their saints anyway? I'm no theologian, but I don't see anything wrong with it - I need all the saint's prayers that I can get! Plus I was watching the t.v. show [u]Abundant Life[/u] on EWTN once and there was a Byzantine Catholic guest who said it was ok.[/quote]

I think that the Eastern Orthodox would be more likely to say that Rome Joins THEM instead of Them Joining us..if I remeber my early Church History correctly...

[Veridicus]

[quote name='kujo' post='1533504' date='May 19 2008, 11:38 AM']I think that Protestants get into heaven. You show me something that says otherwise and I'll consider it. Until then, anyone who dies testifying that Christ is Lord gets in, IMHO.[/quote]

Did you read all of those Church council quotes above? Have you read John 6? The Eucharist is the lifeblood of salvation. It doesnt' exist outside the Church. I'm not gonna be balsy and say that every Protestant is going to hell. But I don't think we can say with certitude that any are going to heaven. We really can't even say that any Catholics are going to heaven...except those that the Church in her wisdom has seen the revealing of the Church triumphant in heaven. I mean I pray that I'll just get into heaven by the skin of my teeth...to assume otherwise is hubris.

And again I must ask...what about the Cathars? The Ebionites? The Marcionists? The Gnostics? What if I think Jesus is a big super alien god that came and died so that I might obtain a piece of the divine spark and become immortal and have my own planets to rule after death? At some point persisting in heresy out of hardness of heart has to be accountable in our salvation. At some point adopting fallacious views of the nature of Christ, his message, his Church...is not really having 'Christ' as Lord at all but instead having your own image of what Christ is as your God. God is unchanging and eternal and so our views should try to conform as much as possible to the reality of that eternal nature. This is done most fully in the Catholic Church.

While that last paragraph may have been a bit sarcastic...I'm not trying to be antagonistic...I just really don't think we can be too wishy washy about salvation. The message has to be clear: the only ordinary means of salvation is through the Catholic Church. This is why we want everyone in the world to unite with the Catholic Church and to become mystically united to Christ in the Eucharist. I want us all together at the marriage supper of the Lamb...but I don't want some wishy washy disjoined nonsense.

Peace.

[kujo]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1533513' date='May 19 2008, 01:50 PM']Did you read all of those Church council quotes above? Have you read John 6? The Eucharist is the lifeblood of salvation. It doesnt' exist outside the Church. I'm not gonna be balsy and say that every Protestant is going to hell. But I don't think we can say with certitude that any are going to heaven. We really can't even say that any Catholics are going to heaven...except those that the Church in her wisdom has seen the revealing of the Church triumphant in heaven. I mean I pray that I'll just get into heaven by the skin of my teeth...to assume otherwise is hubris.

And again I must ask...what about the Cathars? The Ebionites? The Marcionists? The Gnostics? What if I think Jesus is a big super alien god that came and died so that I might obtain a piece of the divine spark and become immortal and have my own planets to rule after death? At some point persisting in heresy out of hardness of heart has to be accountable in our salvation. At some point adopting fallacious views of the nature of Christ, his message, his Church...is not really having 'Christ' as Lord at all but instead having your own image of what Christ is as your God. God is unchanging and eternal and so our views should try to conform as much as possible to the reality of that eternal nature. This is done most fully in the Catholic Church.

While that last paragraph may have been a bit sarcastic...I'm not trying to be antagonistic...I just really don't think we can be too wishy washy about salvation. The message has to be clear: the only ordinary means of salvation is through the Catholic Church. This is why we want everyone in the world to unite with the Catholic Church and to become mystically united to Christ in the Eucharist. I want us all together at the marriage supper of the Lamb...but I don't want some wishy washy disjoined nonsense.

Peace.[/quote]

I can't deny that I know nothing of those groups you describe. But I imagine that God's love and mercy will sort of this stuff. I agree that the ordinary, intended means of salvation comes from Christ through the Catholic Church.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='kujo' post='1533504' date='May 19 2008, 10:38 AM']I think that Protestants get into heaven. You show me something that says otherwise and I'll consider it. Until then, anyone who dies testifying that Christ is Lord gets in, IMHO.[/quote]
Of course there may be Protestants who have gone (or even will go) to heaven, but Protestant Churches do not normally commemorate saints in their worship; thus, I really do not see how a Catholic could venerate Protestant "saints."

Orthodox, on the other hand, commemorate saints and martyrs liturgically; and so those men and women who have been glorified in the Eastern Orthodox Churches for the purpose of the liturgical commemoration can be known and venerated by Catholics.

[jeffpugh]

Wow, this is an old thread. Thanks for bumping it up though, Apotheoun.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='willguy' post='47864' date='Oct 27 2003, 03:06 PM']Is it wrong for a Catholic to pray to a saint of the Eastern Orthodoxy?[/quote]

If they are saints exclusive to the Eastern Orthodox then I would say absolutely not. But what do I know? I seem to have a wildly different view of the Orthodox than the rest of PM, even more so than the rest of my views.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Adeodatus' post='184524' date='May 4 2004, 04:18 AM']The Ethiopian Orthodox Church does consider Pontius Pilate to be a saint though. Maybe Mel Gibson does too![/quote]

I'd bet you anything he doesn't (though that would be hard since I haven't seen you around in ages ). I could be wrong but I don't see any reason why he would. If he's not in the list of pre-Vatican II saints then Mel Gibson wouldn't accept him. Even despite his recent craziness (vacationing with Britney Spears etc.)

edit: and I noticed, but won't address the off-topics mostly from page 2.

Edited May 19, 2008 by goldenchild17

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1533582' date='May 19 2008, 12:04 PM']If they are saints exclusive to the Eastern Orthodox then I would say absolutely not. But what do I know? I seem to have a wildly different view of the Orthodox than the rest of PM, even more so than the rest of my views. [/quote]
Eastern Catholics venerate Orthodox saints all the time, so none of them are really "exclusive" to Eastern Orthodoxy.

[goldenchild17]

maybe. I don't believe that anyone is to be considered a saint unless recognized so by the Catholic Church. That's not to say that no one visibly outside the Catholic Church won't be in heaven (meaning they will have somehow become Catholic before death, i.e. BOB/BOD) and it's probably not a bad thing for someone to privately pray to someone canonized outside the Catholic Church, because who knows they may or may not be in heaven (if they are then they are Catholic). But I don't believe there is a valid canon of saints outside of the Catholic one. So aside from a private devotion, I can't see that it's allowed. I'm not arguing what the rules are now. Just what I know them to be, and what they used to be.

[Apotheoun]

They are recognized by the Catholic Church, i.e., the Eastern Catholic Church.

[goldenchild17]

If they are recognized by the Eastern Rites then I have no problem with it. I'm not sure how canonizations etc. work in the East, but if it's only individuals in the Eastern Rite that recognize them then its not good enough IMO. But if they are, then in my opinion I think they are to be venerated as Catholic saints, not as Orthodox saints. Sometimes different groups believe the same person is a saint. I think St. Augustine of Hippo is one such example. The Catholic Church venerates him as a saint, but so do many Protestant churches. This doesn't make him a Protestant saint, because I don't believe there are saints outside the Catholic Church. It makes him a Catholic saint recognized as such by the Protestants. Same should be held here, a saint venerated by the Eastern rite (and in my opinion, should thus be venerated by the whole Catholic Church east or west) is a Catholic saint, not an Orthodox saint, but is recognized as such by the Orthodox. May seem a trivial difference, but I believe there are serious implications if not understood this way.

Edited May 20, 2008 by goldenchild17