Sun centered?

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='aloha918' date='Feb 18 2005, 10:29 AM'] this book suggested that actually Galileo was a faithful Catholic and wanted to have room for a mix of the 2, science and religion.........
[/quote]
The wrift between science and religion began around the time of darwin and his theories. Up until then, many scientist and learned men were religious. Even today, some very prominent scientist see their work as an extension of gods will and creation.

[aloha918]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Feb 18 2005, 10:49 AM'] The wrift between science and religion began around the time of darwin and his theories. Up until then, many scientist and learned men were religious. Even today, some very prominent scientist see their work as an extension of gods will and creation. [/quote]
very true...i just thought that it was interesting becasue he went through an inquisition....but was supposevly a faithful cahtolic........

[jimbo]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Feb 18 2005, 10:08 AM']

Even if Galileo pushed the buttons of the church, and even if as you say there was no proof at the time. He was still right. [/quote]
Actually, he was [i]wrong[/i] in his theroy. Galileo's theroy consisted of [i]circular[/i] orbits, not elipiptical ones. Other aspects of his "proofs" fall short as well.

[aloha918]

[quote name='jimbo' date='Feb 18 2005, 11:51 AM'] Actually, he was [i]wrong[/i] in his theroy. Galileo's theroy consisted of [i]circular[/i] orbits, not elipiptical ones. Other aspects of his "proofs" fall short as well. [/quote]
i know that is what copernicus thought....but im not to sure if Galileo thought that....but hey you might be right.....

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='jimbo' date='Feb 18 2005, 12:51 PM'] Actually, he was [i]wrong[/i] in his theroy. Galileo's theroy consisted of [i]circular[/i] orbits, not elipiptical ones. Other aspects of his "proofs" fall short as well. [/quote]
And nobody currently believes that the Sun is the center of the universe as Galileo seemed to think.

[jasJis]

Little bit of correction here. You guys need to read more un-biased history about Galileo.

The idea of the earth circling the sun was Copernicus', before Galileo. In the science community, it was very theoretical and didn't go far because there was no telescope or observations. Toss in the biblical passages, and you see the problem. Galileo proved the movement theory with the telescope and careful observation. Galileo felt the the perfection and order of the Universe was the fingerprint of God and evidence that God existed and could not stand stupid superstition and peripatic thought.

Also note that the Chistian Churches (Cath & Prot) were heavily involved in world politics, kings, etc, and provided the structure for Governments. The Governments and mostly the Church strongly supported the Sciences with big $$$. When scientists disagreed, they used politics to curry favor or sow disfavor on their competitors. That is how the Church got used.

Galileo's book did not objectively make fun of the Pope. They were friends. Galileo's book was a dialogue and did have a 'moron' who Galileo argued against. Unfortunately, 2 arguements were almost verbatim what the pope had said to Galileo and enimies of Galileo used that and made a big deal about it, putting the pope in a bad spot. Galileo was put under 'house arrest' during his trial, but he was paid, was given everything he wanted, and stayed in the palace of a friend of the popes.

Galileo was a very faithful Catholic who got caught up in bigger politics. People in and near the Church used aspects of the Church for power and prestige battles. Try reading 'Star Gazer'. It was written in Italian, but was translated to english in the 30's. Great book.

Edited February 18, 2005 by jasJis

[argent_paladin]

In some ways, the larger battle in the Church was not the specifics of the theory, but the very fact that Aristotle/Ptolemy could be so wrong about something so fundamental. Their theory had been considered truth for thousands of years and seemed to be confirmed by scripture. Thomas Aquinas and the Scholastics based much of their theology in the philosophy (including the cosmology) of Aristotle. Indeed, transubstantiation was explained using language appropriated from Aristotle's science. So, it was a big deal for the Church to consider throwing out this traditional understanding.

Interestingly, it turns out that Einstein showed that the Church was right, in a way. In his theory of Relativity, he showed that there is no "center of the universe" and that any point may be used as an inertial frame of reference, even the earth. So, for many purposes, it is fine to assume that the Earth (actually, the observer) is the center of the universe when making observations and calculations. So, in a way, the Church was right and Galileo wrong.

[MichaelFilo]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Feb 18 2005, 11:08 AM'] Lets not whitewash the church for being wrong on this one. I could see why they would be upset at Galileo for insulting them and Im sure it played a big part in what happened. At the same time, in regards to what you say about his tools and his theory not able to be proovable without a doubt. The initial theory of the sun centered universe, didn't have any provable evidence other than the bible or interpeted words of the bible. The greeks and the mayas made alot of advancement and discoveries in astronomy with very basic tools. But when you go against the most powerful authority in the land, and say they are wrong, than you are asking for problems. The church felt strongly that they were right in their interpetation, but as science has proven were wrong.

Even if Galileo pushed the buttons of the church, and even if as you say there was no proof at the time. He was still right. [/quote]
Whoa cowboy, I didn't whitewash the Church's position. I defended it. There is no reason to repeat the obvious mistake, that it went against a correct theory. The fact whether the Church was wrong or right overall doesn't matter however. It was an undefendable attack against the Pope (and in that sense, the Church). Allowing it to go on unpunished is sick and wrong, and would make the Church seem like a mockery. The Church stood up in defense of what was provabbly right at the time (unlike our Faith, science can contradict and reverse itself completely). The Church's position also wasn't undefendable, from what observers of the heavens could conclude from the information given to them, they were right, and it was defendable. When Galileo attacked the norm by supporting the Capernecian theory that was still not provable by the time's technology, and attacked the norm by making fun of the Pope, then Galileo was at fault, and the Pope and Church were not.

Mayas and Greeks didn't have a heliocentric worldview, for the record.

Neither party was right, since the Sun is not only NOT the center of the universe, it's also a small ball of nothingness in the light of the expanse of the universe.

God bless,
Mikey

[jasJis]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Feb 18 2005, 04:37 PM'] ... It was an undefendable attack against the Pope (and in that sense, the Church). Allowing it to go on unpunished is sick and wrong, and would make the Church seem like a mockery. The Church stood up in defense of what was provabbly right at the time (unlike our Faith, science can contradict and reverse itself completely). The Church's position also wasn't undefendable, from what observers of the heavens could conclude from the information given to them, they were right, and it was defendable. When Galileo attacked the norm by supporting the Capernecian theory that was still not provable by the time's technology, and attacked the norm by making fun of the Pope, then Galileo was at fault, and the Pope and Church were not.
... [/quote]
That's not what happened. Read my post above.

It wasn't about the sun being the center of the Universe, but that the earth rotated around the sun, not the other way.

Galileo did not attack the pope.

[MichaelFilo]

He didn't attack the pope directly. What he did would be the equivalent of me walking up to a Catholic and telling him his beliefs are for idiots and hookers. I haven't attacked him directly, but I did attack him indirectly. Just so did Galileo do to the Pope, when he used for the representation of the geocentric theory an idiotic person. This is an attack on the pope.

God bless,
Mikey

[jasJis]

Mike,
No it wasn't an attack on the Pope. You've got to know the 'rest of the story' as Paul Harvey would say.

Back then, they did not have magazine, newspapers, or public speaking forums for scientific debate. They wrote small books/tracts to publish their opinions and theorys, to defend against other's books, and to attack other's books. That is what Galileo did. The private conversations that the Pope had with Galileo mirrored some arguements that were in other books. People twisted Galileo's book and said it was a personal attack on the Pope. The Pope didn't think it was personal, but had to go through the motions of an Inquisition for political purposes. If you researched this more, you would find alot of irregularities about Galileo's trial and conviction. It was not valid due to technicalities of who signed the documents of sentence, conviction, and the original charges. Galileo was personally protected by the Pope and his influential friends and was treated extremely well, by any standards. Galileo was a stubborn man and would defend what he thought was Right and True to the death, and lacked a certain amount of tact.

Galileo loved God and the Catholic Church with all his heart and soul. As a scientist, he also believed that the Absolute Truths in Science were evidence of the Absolute Perfection of God. He felt that human perception could barely understand God, but Science gave evidence to the Perfection of the Creator. He could not stand a 'fairy tale' that explained God when the Truth explained better.

[MichaelFilo]

I'll research it more.

God bless,
Mikey

[aloha918]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Feb 18 2005, 01:28 PM'] You guys need to read more un-biased history about Galileo.




[/quote]
and all that you read is unbiased.............hmmmm

Edited February 21, 2005 by aloha918