Mary Co-Redemptrix(?)

[Totus Tuus]

I am personally becoming involved with the Vox Populi movement, and I think it's awesome.
Read any of Mark Mirravile's works for more info on Mary as the Mediatrix. I posted a link where you can download his books online in another thread.

God bless!

Totus Tuus,
Lauren

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Just for clarification... I am NOT denying Mary as Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate. I fully believe, and await the day in which it shall be declared dogma.


I am just trying to understand dogma being defined without a solemn declaration through an act of the ordinary magisterium.. because it seems to me that this is mere speculation on the part of the faithful few here (no offense intended). How can dogma exist without a solemn declaration?! That is part of the very definition of a dogma! The "heirarchy" of discipline, doctrine, dogma doesn't make any one thing less true than another, they set out the adherence of faith.. this does not give one the freedom to reject any or part of one either... but they are defined in different ways for reasons.

Anyhow, I'm rambling...
I have class.. but I will return to this after class.

Edited February 17, 2005 by Fides_et_Ratio

[thessalonian]

It is not called dogma because there is still doctrinal developement going on such that it can be more accuately defined.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Feb 17 2005, 02:29 PM'] Just for clarification... I am NOT denying Mary as Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate. I fully believe, and await the day in which it shall be declared dogma. [/quote]
we know we've never accused you otherwise

[quote]I am just trying to understand dogma being defined without a solemn declaration through an act of the ordinary magisterium.. because it seems to me that this is mere speculation on the part of the faithful few here (no offense intended).[/quote]
did you read the documents that apotheoun cited? it is rather explicit in them.

[quote]How can dogma exist without a solemn declaration?! That is part of the very definition of a dogma! The "heirarchy" of discipline, doctrine, dogma doesn't make any one thing less true than another, they set out the adherence of faith.. this does not give one the freedom to reject any or part of one either... but they are defined in different ways for reasons.[/quote]
i would suggest that you broaden your definition of the word. the definition i provided from the Catholic Dictionary (by Peter Stravinskas, Ph.D., S.T.D.) summarizes the information apotheoun provided.

that said, i want you to know that i'm not attacking you. you seem have been on the offensive ever since i disagreed with you. no hard feelings. i am just trying to "be transformed by the renewal of my mind" just as you are

Pax Christi,
phatcatholic

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Feb 17 2005, 12:29 PM'] Just for clarification... I am NOT denying Mary as Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate. I fully believe, and await the day in which it shall be declared dogma. [/quote]
I know you aren't denying the doctrine of Marian coredemption, or the fact that Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces. I'm simply pointing out the fact that although the doctrine of Marian coredemption is not a dogma, it is [i]de fide tenenda[/i], and as such it is an infallible truth of Catholic doctrine that all Catholics are required to assent to definitively. Consequently, if a man fails to give his assent to this doctrine he separates himself from full communion with the Catholic Church.

[phatcatholic]

why isn't it a dogma?

thessalonian said it was b/c there was still "doctrinal development going on such that in can be more accurately defined"

is that right?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Feb 17 2005, 12:29 PM']I am just trying to understand dogma being defined without a solemn declaration through an act of the ordinary magisterium.. because it seems to me that this is mere speculation on the part of the faithful few here (no offense intended). How can dogma exist without a solemn declaration?! That is part of the very definition of a dogma! The "heirarchy" of discipline, doctrine, dogma doesn't make any one thing less true than another, they set out the adherence of faith.. this does not give one the freedom to reject any or part of one either... but they are defined in different ways for reasons.

Anyhow, I'm rambling...
I have class.. but I will return to this after class.[/quote]
If the Magisterium, in its ordinary daily teaching, proposes something as divinely revealed even without recourse to a solemn dogmatic definition, the doctrine in question is held to have been taught infallibly as a dogma of divine and catholic faith.

The underestimation of the power of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium to proclaim dogmas and doctrines infallibly through what are called non-defining acts, that is, through the ordinary daily teaching of the faith by the Pope and the bishops dispersed throughout the world has become a major problem. This underestimation of the authority of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium by large numbers of theologians was one of the main reasons why the Pope, through the CDF, added the three concluding propositions to the "Professio Fidei." Moreover, because some theologians had been undermining the authority of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium the CDF itself issued the [u]Official Doctrinal Commentary on the Professio Fidei[/u] in order to combat their erroneous interpretations of the modes of operation of the Church's infallible teaching office, and the erroneous views promoted by some theologians is also why the Pope issued the Apostolic Letter [u]Ad Tuendam Fidem[/u]. The opening sentence of the Pope's letter says it all, "TO PROTECT THE FAITH of the Catholic Church against errors arising from certain members of the Christian faithful, [i][b]especially from among those dedicated to the various disciplines of sacred theology[/b][/i], we, whose principal duty is to confirm the brethren in the faith (Luke 22:32), consider it absolutely necessary to add to the existing texts of the [u]Code of Canon Law[/u] and the [u]Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches[/u], new norms which expressly impose the obligation of upholding truths proposed in a definitive way by the Magisterium of the Church, and which also establish related canonical sanctions." [Pope John Paul II, [u]Ad Tuendam Fidem[/u], preface] It truly is a sad day when men who claim to be Catholic theologians try to undermine the Church's faith, but I praise God daily for the gift of indefectibility which He has given to His Church.

God bless,
Todd

[phatcatholic]

apotheoun...............why isn't Mary as coredemptrix a dogma? it would appear to fulfill all of the qualifications of one.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Feb 17 2005, 03:52 PM'] apotheoun...............why isn't Mary as coredemptrix a dogma? it would appear to fulfill all of the qualifications of one. [/quote]
Because the Church, through both her Extraordinary and her Ordinary Magisterium, has not seen fit to declare it as a dogma of divine and catholic faith at this time. As a Catholic I humbly await the Church's decision, but it is my opinion that the doctrine of Marian Coredemption will at some point in the not too distant future be declared a dogma, but whether that will occur through a solemn pronouncement of the Pope or an ecumenical council, or whether it will simply happen over time through the non-defining acts of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium is an open question.

God bless,
Todd

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Feb 17 2005, 03:52 PM'] . . . it would appear to fulfill all of the qualifications of one. [/quote]
Yes, I agree that it does qualify. It is a truth that is at least implicitly contained within the deposit of divine revelation (i.e., scripture and tradition), and thus there is nothing to prevent the Church's Magisterium from declaring it to be a dogma of divine and catholic faith.

[phatcatholic]

here are links to the documents referenced in this thread:

--[url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a2.htm#III"]CCC 84-95[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFADTU.HTM"]Doctrinal Commentary on the Concluding Formula of the Professio Fidei[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFTHEO.HTM"]Donum Veritatis: Instruction on the Ecclesial Vocation of the Theologian[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2ADTU.HTM"]Ad Tuendam Fidem: To Protect the Faith[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/MDPD.HTM"]Magisterial Documents and Public Dissent[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2ORDIN.HTM"]Ordinatio Sacerdotalis: Apostolic Letter on Reserving Priestly Ordination to Men Alone[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/papad1.htm"]Magisterium Exercises Authority in Christ's Name[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/JP2VER.HTM"]Veritatis Splendor: The Splendor of Truth[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/JP2EVANG.HTM"]Evangelium Vitae: Gospel of Life[/url]
--[url="http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0017/_INDEX.HTM"]1983 Code of Canon Law[/url]
--[url="http://www.intratext.com/X/ENG1199.HTM"]Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches[/url]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Feb 17 2005, 04:17 PM'] here are links to the documents referenced in this thread:

--[url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a2.htm#III"]CCC 84-95[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFADTU.HTM"]Doctrinal Commentary on the Concluding Formula of the Professio Fidei[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFTHEO.HTM"]Donum Veritatis: Instruction on the Ecclesial Vocation of the Theologian[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2ADTU.HTM"]Ad Tuendam Fidem: To Protect the Faith[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/MDPD.HTM"]Magisterial Documents and Public Dissent[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2ORDIN.HTM"]Ordinatio Sacerdotalis: Apostolic Letter on Reserving Priestly Ordination to Men Alone[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/papad1.htm"]Magisterium Exercises Authority in Christ's Name[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/JP2VER.HTM"]Veritatis Splendor: The Splendor of Truth[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/JP2EVANG.HTM"]Evangelium Vitae: Gospel of Life[/url]
--[url="http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0017/_INDEX.HTM"]1983 Code of Canon Law[/url]
--[url="http://www.intratext.com/X/ENG1199.HTM"]Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches[/url] [/quote]
You are the king of links.