Did the Church need reforming in 1517?

[Matt Black]

Yes, but not a theologian!

Yours in Christ

Matt

[MC Just]

Yes but when the Church needs reformation, God will send someone for it. That was not a "reformation" it was a Deformation.

[crusader1234]

I guess one way of putting it is that the hierarchy of the Church could have used a reformation, in how they dealt with abuses, but no reformation of doctrine was ever needed and will never be needed.

[Mary's Knight, La]

to what extent did the church need reforming... no extent at all
to what extent did her members need reforming... well part of that answer is obvious and other parts are between them and God

To answer your clarification (what makes us sure she's right now): some of her members messed up in how they did things... not what they did... allow me a brief clarification:

raising money for the church is good
granting indulgences is also good

it is only when they tried raising money by selling indulgences that problems came

it was never a belief of the church that the purpose of indulgences was to sell them, only action was wrong not belief (except perhaps the belief that selling them was okay, but I don't think you can say the church as the church taught that)

[jasJis]

Matt,
No theology is needed. Just logic. As a lawyer, you know that certain statements are true, no matter how you look at it. Another statement, built on the first answer may be true given a certain set of circumstances. A lawyer leads a jury in the logic by building on previous 'truths'. You can easily see examples of hierarchal truths in Math. 1+1=2, 1+1+a=2+a=2 if a=0, but not if a>0. The value of one is Dogma, the first formulas are Doctrine, and finally, the subjective value of "a" is Discipline.

This brings things back to the Reformation. If at some time, the Church's Discipline is 1+1+a (where a=.5)=2, something needs to be reformed. The point of contention is whether or not to scrap the whole number concept, but to examine the Doctrine (the formula) and the Discipline (the subjective value of "a"). In the case of indulgences, it wasn't the Dogma or Doctrine, but the human subjective value of indulgences for works of charity and defining cash donations as charity, but not looking too closely at the message being given.

Infallibility of the Church is trust in the Dogmatic Truth that the Holy Spirit abides in His Church, and will allways be present to CORRECT Discipline and develop Doctrine, and prevent loss of Dogma. It does not mean that the Church is perfect in everyway and is infallibly perfect in Doctrine and perfect in Discipline. God participates with humanity by overcoming our failures and making them a victory for Him.

The Church reforms itself from the Grace within. It denies the Holy Spirit to believe one has to go outside the Church to find Grace for reform because that says that Grace has abandoned the Church.

[crusader1234]

I think the main thing here is whether by Church you mean all members of the Church, or the Church herself being the doctrine and stuff... Because the hierarchy and the members are alwyas going to be in need of correction and reformation.

[Archangel]

Heck, if you want an example of corruption in the Church, just look at Judas

[Crusader_4]

Okay lets put this into modern terms. The Church particularly in America is suffering as we come out of a sex abuse scandal by a few pervert priests. Now do the actions of a few of these sickos change the doctrine regarding the priesthood? its the same with indulgences do the bad actions of some people (especially when a blind eye is turned) actually change the teaching and the truth behind their purpose. it does not. Judas is a great example. Does Christianity now become nullified because of Judas poor actions and choices.