Matt Black Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 To what extent was the Catholic Church in error in 1517 with particular reference to the matter of the sale of indulgences? Yours in Christ Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 I suggest the short book "The Roots of The Reformation" by Karl Adams. He does an excellent job of showing who was at fault where (both the Catholic Chuch and the Reformers) for what lead up to the split between the Church. The Church is by no doubt comprised of sinners. During the 1500's certian practices of the Church were grossly misused by religious members of the Church. There was not a problem with any doctrine, only how some people choose to carry out the matter of indulgances. Let it also be said that the 'sale' of indulgances was never directly beneficial to those priests doing the 'selling'. The indulgance was almost always to give money to a charity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Black Posted February 16, 2005 Author Share Posted February 16, 2005 To what extent could the Magisterium/ the Papacy be said to be complicit in that abuse? Yours in Christ Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 From what I remember being taught, the extremely serious abuses regarding indulgences were limited to parts of Germany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 The Church did indeed need reforming (with regards to some corrupt practices that were being done by members of the Church). The problem is that Luther did not reform the Church, but broke away from the Church. The Church was reformed during the Catholic so-called "Counter-Reformation" of the late 16th Century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 [quote name='Matt Black' date='Feb 16 2005, 03:58 AM'] To what extent was the Catholic Church in error in 1517 with particular reference to the matter of the sale of indulgences? Yours in Christ Matt [/quote] The Church's members are in constant need of moral purification, both in the present day and back in the year 1517; but the Church herself, as the spotless Bride of Christ, can never fall into doctrinal error. God bless, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Feb 16 2005, 09:21 AM'] I suggest the short book "The Roots of The Reformation" by Karl Adams. [/quote] Which is all online for free: [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CHISTORY/RTREF.TXT"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/CHISTORY/RTREF.TXT[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crusader1234 Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Its kind of a loaded question isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Black Posted February 17, 2005 Author Share Posted February 17, 2005 Kind of, yes. The point or question at which I'm driving in asking the OP question is this: if the Church could get it wrong before 1517, what is the guarantee that She is getting it right today? Yours in Christ Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Of course its a loaded question The Church didn't get it wrong. Certain members of it did. You will always find some sort of scandal somewhere since we are sinful people, but the Church founded by Jesus Christ is protected by the Holy Spirit. "and the gates of hell will not prevail" has carried us through 2000 years and counting. Did you read the section on indulgences in the reference section yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 [quote name='Matt Black' date='Feb 17 2005, 04:18 AM'] Kind of, yes. The point or question at which I'm driving in asking the OP question is this: if the Church could get it wrong before 1517, what is the guarantee that She is getting it right today? Yours in Christ Matt [/quote] Individual members of the Church can fall into error, but the Church herself cannot fall into error because she is the Body of Christ, and the Head (Christ) and His Body (the Church) are one man stretching throughout time. The Church is the perpetual extension of the incarnation throughout history. Thus, to ascribe doctrinal error to the Church is the equivalent of ascribing doctrinal error to Christ Himself. Moreover, the Magisterium of the Church in particular (i.e., the Pope and all the bishops in communion with him understood diachronically, and not simply synchronically), has received the sure charism of truth, and as a consequence, the Magisterium cannot fall into error when teaching on matters of faith and morals. In other words, the Church's Magisterium is infallible when it intends to bind the Christian faithful to a particular doctrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Matt, Would you answer a couple of questions for me? Do you understand and agree with the concept of 'Hierachy of Truths'? For convenience, it's conditional statements that fall under the categories, such as 'Always True', 'Usually True', 'Sometimes True', 'Definitely True', 'Probably True', etc. For rough example, Dogma is basically Always True statements, Doctrine is Probably True, Discipline is Probably True (and allows for subjective choice). The Catholic Church, is rooted in Dogma and is the source for Doctrine. As time progresses, Doctrine is refined as more minds and souls ponder and examine it's actions in the world. Doctrine may change, but not to a contradictory state as it's roots is Dogma. Discipline is something that changes even more often as it allows for more subjective choices. To claim the Catholic Church is completely corrupt is to claim it's Dogma are wrong. Even Luther didn't say that. It's the tail wagging the dog concept. The infallibility of the Church is rooted in the Dogmatic facts that Christ will not abandon the Church, and it is a living organization. Doctrine and Discipline will be corrected and refined through out the ages provided we don't abandon the Dogmatic Cores. Unfortunately, that is what has happened and why some 'christian' churches deny the trinity, the reality of sacraments, the divinity of Christ, etc., etc. It isn't logical to claim that core Truth Statements are in error just because dependent Statements have some errors. The Dependent Statements include other statements as they are a development or extropulation from the core. have Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yiannii Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 As I understand it - around that time there was a lot of confusion going around so the counter-reformation was sort of used to clearly define where the Church stood on things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Black Posted February 17, 2005 Author Share Posted February 17, 2005 JasJis, no, I'm not familiar with that kind of hierarchy of epistemology. I think I get what you're saying but would be grateful if you could unpack that a bit more for me. Don't forget I'm an evangelical and we tend to have an absolutist view of all truth! Yours in Christ Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Matt, Aren't you a lawyer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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