leaving the rcc

[MichaelFilo]

One of the clearest examples of those who recognize that the Church is the Truth handed down by Christ but choose a lie over Truth are those in the ranks of liberals who want to change teachin about things they will not try to change in themselves, or at least have not at the time of their seeing the need for the Church to change according to them. There will be some who leave the Church for their earthly ends. They may recognize the Church as teh truth, and may be so manipulated as to know it but not accept it. Which brings me to a keypoint. The Church is the Pillar of Truth. Some recognize this but for various reasons choose other things over Her. People are by their nature truth seekers, but when you are entrapped by a world cultivated to hate the Church and Her members, sometimes you can get sucked up in it.

if no one believed the Church to be the Truth and instead chose to leave Her then no Catholic would struggle with sin and give in to the Deceiver. If no one believed the Church to be True and left Her then we wouldn't have anyone who has had trouble with marriage issues (they couldn't get married again) their sexual disorders (certain people on PM have clearly shown this struggle) loss of Faith, being convinced to the contrary, etc. This is clearly not true. People will be decieved putting their trust in others above the Church and God's promises in Her, people will fall away, and for many reasons too long to list in any one post. All of them are vile and hateful reasons that hold no water in the light of God and His Love.

God bless,
Mikey

[Jaime]

Cmotherofpirl asks "How do you define Church support?

I believe Faith is a personal act - the free response of the human person to the initiative of God who reveals himself. But faith is not an isolated act. No one can believe alone, just as no one can live alone. You have not given yourself faith as you have not given yourself life. The believer has received faith from others and should hand it on to others. Our love for Jesus and for our neighbor impels us to speak to others about our faith. Each believer is thus a link in the great chain of believers. I cannot believe without being carried by the faith of others, and by my faith I help support others in the faith.

[Melchisedec]

When I was a child we lived in a small community in the carribean where the Catholic church was our very life. My mothers eventual leaving of the church was over, divorce for one and two, the disallowment of things she tought to be mundane. We were not allowed most toys, not to watch star wars, and certain shows. When we bought our atari, they told us to get rid of it and my mom had the last straw lol. She could not understand why they would disallow such things that she felt were not harmful nor really important. In my case, I dont believe the bible is the inspired word of god. So in my case, I walked away because its not true to me. My mom walked away for a more liberal christian church. It seems very common today that people leave to a church that suits there views more so. And considering the openness of interpetation of the bible, those types of churches are all over the place.

Edited February 17, 2005 by Melchisedec

[AngelofJesus]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 17 2005, 12:51 PM'] Cmotherofpirl asks "How do you define Church support?

I believe Faith is a personal act - the free response of the human person to the initiative of God who reveals himself. But faith is not an isolated act. No one can believe alone, just as no one can live alone. You have not given yourself faith as you have not given yourself life. The believer has received faith from others and should hand it on to others. Our love for Jesus and for our neighbor impels us to speak to others about our faith. Each believer is thus a link in the great chain of believers. I cannot believe without being carried by the faith of others, and by my faith I help support others in the faith. [/quote]
I totally agree. While there is need for communion with one another, let the communion be because of Christ and not become a social event. If we combine what cmotherofpirl is suggesting and what jamie is suggesting, we end up with a social being that is first and foremost a Catholic. Remember, Jesus was not a hermit. He socialized and attended social gatherings. For what do we need evangalizers, apologists, etc. for if not to give the word of God to each other. Therefore, we need one another to strengthen each other in the faith. In John's gospel, Jesus prayed that the apostles be one as he and the Father are one. How do you think they could accomplish that without being with one another?

[Jaime]

[quote] If we combine what cmotherofpirl is suggesting and what jamie is suggesting, we end up with a social being that is first and foremost a Catholic[/quote]

Which parts? Because I think the two of us are in a polite disagreement.

[AngelofJesus]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 18 2005, 07:49 AM']
Which parts? Because I think the two of us are in a polite disagreement. [/quote]
The part where cmotherofpirl is saying that if you really know your faith then there would be no reason for you to leave the church. And the part where you say that there needs to be a support system and that we are responsible for one another to keep our faith up. If you put those together and combine them you get the total package of what we all should be, a well informed social catholic.

Someone who is ingrained with the essence of our faith, yet does not keep it hidden. "No one lights a lamp and hides it in a jar or puts it under a bed. Instead, he puts it on a stand, so that those who come in can see the light. " Lk 8:16

Because of varying circumstances it is not possible for everyone to be well educated in the faith. It is even in Jesus' parable.
“A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants." MT 18:3-7

Thats why we need those people whose seed of faith had fallen on fertile ground, to step up and be pillars for other whose faith wanes. It is not enough that you know your faith, you need to be a "social butterfly" so that other will know their faith, too.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Feb 17 2005, 06:08 PM'] When I was a child we lived in a small community in the carribean where the Catholic church was our very life. My mothers eventual leaving of the church was over, divorce for one and two, the disallowment of things she tought to be mundane. We were not allowed most toys, not to watch star wars, and certain shows. When we bought our atari, they told us to get rid of it and my mom had the last straw lol. She could not understand why they would disallow such things that she felt were not harmful nor really important. In my case, I dont believe the bible is the inspired word of god. So in my case, I walked away because its not true to me. My mom walked away for a more liberal christian church. It seems very common today that people leave to a church that suits there views more so. And considering the openness of interpetation of the bible, those types of churches are all over the place. [/quote]
This is a cultural thing , not a catholic thing. The church doesn't have an opinion on
Star Wars or Atari.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 17 2005, 04:51 PM'] Cmotherofpirl asks "How do you define Church support?

I believe Faith is a personal act - the free response of the human person to the initiative of God who reveals himself. But faith is not an isolated act. No one can believe alone, just as no one can live alone. You have not given yourself faith as you have not given yourself life. The believer has received faith from others and should hand it on to others. Our love for Jesus and for our neighbor impels us to speak to others about our faith. Each believer is thus a link in the great chain of believers. I cannot believe without being carried by the faith of others, and by my faith I help support others in the faith. [/quote]
I didn't ask you about faith I asked you to define support. .
What do you think the church needs to do to meet what you consider a minimum of support?

I know we are supposed to love one another, but as a fallable sinful human, most of us fail quite often at this. To depend on others is to be disappointed. To depend on God who is emeth is a sure bet. I don't expect humans to carry me when God is available. Yes we can help we oter in crisis, but God alone is the source of strength as in Psalm 23.

[AngelofJesus]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Feb 18 2005, 11:40 AM'] I didn't ask you about faith I asked you to define support. .
What do you think the church needs to do to meet what you consider a minimum of support?

I know we are supposed to love one another, but as a fallable sinful human, most of us fail quite often at this. To depend on others is to be disappointed. To depend on God who is emeth is a sure bet. I don't expect humans to carry me when God is available. Yes we can help we oter in crisis, but God alone is the source of strength as in Psalm 23. [/quote]
There is a difference between supporting one another and depending on one another.

Dependency:
n 1: lack of independence or self-sufficiency

Supportive:
adj : furnishing support or assistance;

If we create dependency on one another in our faith we are bound to be dissapointed, but supporting or assisting one another in our gathering is a way of keeping our dependency on God strong.

[Jaime]

[quote]
I know we are supposed to love one another, but as a fallable sinful human, most of us fail quite often at this[/quote]

and THAT is the reason why some willfully choose to leave the Church. Because we as their brethren fail.

[quote] There is a difference between supporting one another and depending on one another[/quote]

But their is also a step in between support and dependence called interdependence. Meaning that once in a while, we need others to lean on.

To manifest Faith we need two things: God and other people. It is in both that Christ is revealed. They are intertwined and inseparable. To deny one is to deny the fullness of God.

Where were you when I was hungry? etc. The "where were you" question is not simply limited to "hungry, cold, imprisoned, etc" but to all that are hurting.

There are people who leave our Church simply because they are hurting. We can debate back and forth abstractly if they are "leaving in full knowledge" or not. The short answer is "It doesn't matter". They left.

Most people think that providing support means providing answers. That isn't the case. We do not have to provide answers to questions like "Why did my husband leave me?" or "Do you think God made me gay?". The only answers that most of us are qualified to give are

God loves you deeply

Please don't leave the Church. We desparately need you.

I have my masters in counseling. I've studied psychology and counseling techniques for years. Without question, the most supportive thing I've ever heard came out of the mouth of a 17 year old girl. Want to know what she said?

"You're a good person. There are lots of people who love you"

At the core, that is what all of us long to know. That we are good and that people love us.

[AngelofJesus]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 18 2005, 12:43 PM']
and THAT is the reason why some willfully choose to leave the Church. Because we as their brethren fail.



But their is also a step in between support and dependence called interdependence. Meaning that once in a while, we need others to lean on.

To manifest Faith we need two things: God and other people. It is in both that Christ is revealed. They are intertwined and inseparable. To deny one is to deny the fullness of God.

Where were you when I was hungry? etc. The "where were you" question is not simply limited to "hungry, cold, imprisoned, etc" but to all that are hurting.

There are people who leave our Church simply because they are hurting. We can debate back and forth abstractly if they are "leaving in full knowledge" or not. The short answer is "It doesn't matter". They left.

Most people think that providing support means providing answers. That isn't the case. We do not have to provide answers to questions like "Why did my husband leave me?" or "Do you think God made me gay?". The only answers that most of us are qualified to give are

God loves you deeply

Please don't leave the Church. We desparately need you.

I have my masters in counseling. I've studied psychology and counseling techniques for years. Without question, the most supportive thing I've ever heard came out of the mouth of a 17 year old girl. Want to know what she said?

"You're a good person. There are lots of people who love you"

At the core, that is what all of us long to know. That we are good and that people love us. [/quote]
I am not sure about interdependence. I am on the fence with that one, only because interdependence connotes reciprocal dependency. I do agree one hundred percent on your next three paragraphs.

About giving answers, it is not really you who gives answers, when you open yourself up to the Spirit, it is the Spirit that gives the answers. You basically become a messenger.

"7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b] 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines." 1Cor 12:7-11

Even to geniuses God will give wisdom for the common good. You might think I am veering off the road, but when faith is concerned and it is manifested and grown, the gifts of the Spirit are not far behind. It does need to be taken into account and that answers given to other people who seek it may come from God through you.

At the core, Jesus is love. If you have Jesus in your heart, you have love in your heart. Along with it is humility, where we come to the realization that we are sinners and unworthy of the love that Jesus is continually giving us. If everyone of us puts Jesus in their heart, we will naturally love one another. The saints loved everyone but not everyone loved them. It is not a requirement to know that people love you to love them, nor is it needed to be joyful in your love for Jesus.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 18 2005, 04:43 PM']
and THAT is the reason why some willfully choose to leave the Church. Because we as their brethren fail.



But their is also a step in between support and dependence called interdependence. Meaning that once in a while, we need others to lean on.

To manifest Faith we need two things: God and other people. It is in both that Christ is revealed. They are intertwined and inseparable. To deny one is to deny the fullness of God.

Where were you when I was hungry? etc. The "where were you" question is not simply limited to "hungry, cold, imprisoned, etc" but to all that are hurting.

There are people who leave our Church simply because they are hurting. We can debate back and forth abstractly if they are "leaving in full knowledge" or not. The short answer is "It doesn't matter". They left.

Most people think that providing support means providing answers. That isn't the case. We do not have to provide answers to questions like "Why did my husband leave me?" or "Do you think God made me gay?". The only answers that most of us are qualified to give are

God loves you deeply

Please don't leave the Church. We desparately need you.

I have my masters in counseling. I've studied psychology and counseling techniques for years. Without question, the most supportive thing I've ever heard came out of the mouth of a 17 year old girl. Want to know what she said?

"You're a good person. There are lots of people who love you"

At the core, that is what all of us long to know. That we are good and that people love us. [/quote]
You will never find a church where people don't fail you in one way or another, it doesn't exist. People will fail you, but God does not.

The church for 2000 years has been telling us God loves us. Its where they preach and teach this message day in and day out. So to leave the source of grace because its not holding your hand is to cut off your nose to spite your face.

Its not a social service agency, its a conduit of grace. Its our connection to the eternal. Anybody can hold your hand, not too many people can hand you the Body of Christ.

[jmjtina]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 18 2005, 01:43 PM']
and THAT is the reason why some willfully choose to leave the Church. Because we as their brethren fail. [/quote]
That Catholic church would have been empty LONG ago if we all left because our brethen failed us at one time or another.

[Jaime]

[quote] You will never find a church where people don't fail you in one way or another, it doesn't exist. People will fail you, but God does not. [/quote]

While that may be true, does that alleviate our responsibility to each other? Does that infer that we do not need each other?

[quote]Its not a social service agency, its a conduit of grace. Its our connection to the eternal.[/quote]

You are right about the last two statements. You are wrong about the first. The Church was created [i] because there is suffering in the world.[/i] It was not created to end our suffering on earth but to strengthen us in our suffering. As the Church strengthens us, we must strengthen each other.

I'm sorry but "God is enough for me" does not reflect the fullness of the Church. The people in our Church are integral to our faith. Not just the ones that are hunky dory but the ones that are in pain.

To put it simply, when we accurately reflect the love of Christ, people join the Church. When we do not, they leave and we fail in what we are called to do.

Edited February 20, 2005 by jaime

[jmjtina]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 20 2005, 09:01 AM'] When we do not, they leave and we fail in what we are called to do. [/quote]
You seem to imply it is all our fault they leave. Even if we were to accurately reflect the love of Christ, people have the choice to accept it or not to accept it.

It happened in the time of Jesus, it happens still today. People will walk away to live the sinful lives they want to. I've heard too many cop-outs of how "they didn't feel the love" and left the Church. And I've also heard of such faithful who go through so much trusting in the Church, living the lives God has called them to courageously.

I do agree that we are to reflect to love of Christ, but people are free to reject or accept the love Christ has to offer through the Church.