leaving the rcc

[Winchester]

We also have Catholics who masturbate, who look at pornography, who are adulterers. The problem occurs when people see their sin or problem as some special circumstance. Life is difficult, no one said otherwise. You choose to marry; some people have divorce shoved on them by their spouse. If there's no anullment, the only other option is waiting for the death of the spouse or bringing it about (I'm kidding, I'm kidding.) But that's the world's fault, not the Church's.
With homosexuality, there's a perception that we are dealing with special circumstnaces, when really feeling a pull toward such acts is no different than feeling a pull toward any other sin. Few argue that psychopaths are clear to kill because God made them have their homicidal urges. Few argue that pedophiles have the right to molest children because of their urges or positions as the "king of rock," though I must add the ACLU protects their alleged right to do so.

The problem is with the world, not the church.

[Donna]

[quote]Most didn't decided to leave, rather, were forced out by the "culture" fostered in some areas[/quote]

Which culture do you mean, Iacobus?

[quote]Therefore, if you really knew the Truth, there is no way you would be able to just walk away.[/quote]

I know what you mean, Thirsty. But yours is a good will speaking.

On a related note in Thess, St. Paul said (referring to those who'd be taken in by the antichrist) that their seduction is at least in part because "they receive not the love of the truth that they might be saved...therefore God will send them the operation of error, to believe a lie".

So that speaks of a diabolical disorientation.

But I also think that people can know the truth and [i]hate [/i]it.

[Donna]

hot stuff,

It is true, there are wounds so deep, beyond our control, and sufferings desparate that can be borne or made unbearable by the treatment of clergy/layity.
There are key times of crisis in which the human element of the Church can literally foster death - or life.

I know not what else to say, except to repeat something I've heard: hang onto whatever thread of the Faith you can...just hang on.

My understanding is that divorce is not a sin...but bad reasons/behavior for leading to it are. I know women ( and one man) who've had no choice in the matter, it was visited upon them. The women are chaste and saints for it; it is an heroic struggle, yet I am certain that God loves them so much more than others who have not and can not bear these great crosses.

[i]Big Theresa, pray for us![/i]

Edited February 16, 2005 by Donna

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 16 2005, 03:25 AM'] I agree with you completely Winchester.

Also throwing the scandal in the list of examples was not to spin the topic from the original post. My point is this:

There are people I know who take their faith very personally (as we should) and due to circumstances outside of their control (i.e. the three examples listed) felt so unsupported in their personal struggle, they left the Church they loved.

The Church does not recognize divorce. Yet we have divorced Catholics

The Church is against homosexual acts. Yet we have homosexual Catholics.


The Church is not wrong in her teachings. But, as you know, the Church still teaches love to these people. Don't we, the body of the Church, bear some responsibility for not ministering to these people? [/quote]
It also depends on what one considers "support".

Do we want our hand held or it pointed to the right direction to take after the disaster?
Do we want to live in victimhood or move to grace because of our circumstances?

Life is suffering and joy.

The Church certainly recognizes there is divorce and homosexuality, but she can't change the rules to make ones life any easier.
She loves us, but is more concerned with our eternal happiness than our earthly happiness.
We conform to the Church, not the Church to us. And we are our brothers keeper.
So if any member of the Body of Christ suffers for ANY reason we all suffer.

[God Conquers]

i dunno

[Jaime]

[quote]Do we want our hand held or it pointed to the right direction to take after the disaster? [/quote]

Why in the world would these be mutually exclusive actions?

[quote]The Church certainly recognizes there is divorce and homosexuality, but she can't change the rules to make ones life any easier. [/quote]

Let's be clear. The Church recognizes that there is divorce. But it does not recognize the civil authority claim that the contract has been broken. The union is still standing unless it is annulled.

I'm not suggesting (nor ever would) that the Church "change her rules". To the contrary, I am suggesting that we, the body of the Church, are not fully demonstrating Her rules.

Unlike adulterers, viewers of pornography and masturbators (referenced by Winchester), the three groups I mentioned can be left to feel scandalized and ashamed. And yes some of them will rightfully feel victimized. But our role should be to support them in their journey from "victim" to "survivor", not just quote the rules. Should they learn about the rules? absolutely. But in so many cases they are not getting the full message.

"Divorce is a grave offense. And the Church loves you deeply"

"homosexuality is intrinsically disordered. And the Church loves you deeply"

The poll asks "How often do people leave the Church knowing that its true?" Others have claimed that it could never happen. They couldn't possibly know that the Church represents Truth and leave her. My examples show that one can know the truth and still leave. And the reason for that is they received the instruction but not the fact that the Church loves you deeply.

[quote]
Life is suffering and joy[/quote]

That is EXACTLY why the Church exists. Because there is suffering in the world.

Hey, I'm new to these parts and I'd like to be clear. I am not promoting any agenda. I'm just offering an opinion on the poll.

[argent_paladin]

The way the question was worded, I would have to say "no one". Aquinas says that we aloways choose what appears to us to be true. PJ2 says that humans are by nature truth seeksers. No one knowingly chooses a lie over the truth. Even if someone says "The Church is true, but it denies me pleasure so I choose pleasure instead", they really mean that pleasure is their truth not the Church, because the Church teaches that there are more important things than pleasure. I don't believe that a single person who believes all that the Church teaches has ever left the Church because that would be a contradiction. If one believes what the Church teaches about heresy or indifference and about the nature of sin and the joys of heaven and the blessings of prayer and community, etc it would be inconcievable that someone would leave.
I would also say that there is a difference between accepting the Church's teaching and truly understainding it and knowing that it is true.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 16 2005, 12:23 PM']
Why in the world would these be mutually exclusive actions?



Let's be clear. The Church recognizes that there is divorce. But it does not recognize the civil authority claim that the contract has been broken. The union is still standing unless it is annulled.

I'm not suggesting (nor ever would) that the Church "change her rules". To the contrary, I am suggesting that we, the body of the Church, are not fully demonstrating Her rules.

Unlike adulterers, viewers of pornography and masturbators (referenced by Winchester), the three groups I mentioned can be left to feel scandalized and ashamed. And yes some of them will rightfully feel victimized. But our role should be to support them in their journey from "victim" to "survivor", not just quote the rules. Should they learn about the rules? absolutely. But in so many cases they are not getting the full message.

"Divorce is a grave offense. And the Church loves you deeply"

"homosexuality is intrinsically disordered. And the Church loves you deeply"

The poll asks "How often do people leave the Church knowing that its true?" Others have claimed that it could never happen. They couldn't possibly know that the Church represents Truth and leave her. My examples show that one can know the truth and still leave. And the reason for that is they received the instruction but not the fact that the Church loves you deeply.



That is EXACTLY why the Church exists. Because there is suffering in the world.

Hey, I'm new to these parts and I'd like to be clear. I am not promoting any agenda. I'm just offering an opinion on the poll. [/quote]
The only reason to leave the Church would be if the Church wasn't true.
The circumstances of our lives are never a reason.
Saying yes is primarily an act of will, not emotion.

[Jaime]

[quote] The only reason to leave the Church would be if the Church wasn't true.
[/quote]

I'm sorry but that statement contradicts free will.

As far as the other two statements, forgive me but maybe I'm a bit dim. Are you saying that the law should be sufficient for these people?

[cmotherofpirl]

No, if the Church weren't true then you could freely leave it.

I think God should be my support system, not the people in the Church.
I guess it depends on how you define support. My Church was helpful when my husband deserted us, but I was my job to carry on my life. My being Catholic does not depend on whether the people in my church are supportive or not. It is because the Church is One Holy Catholic and Apostolic: it is true.

[RemnantRules]

Blessed Be God!!!


Everything about leaving the Church and leaving the Truth is no "Modern" thing. It happen even when Jesus came down from heaven. John 6:66.

It is said one who becomes to know the knowledge of the truth and the truth of their salvation and walks away puts their soul in danger.




God Bless
Jason Gregory

[Jaime]

cmotherofpirl

I love the Church. I know the Church very well and I am free to leave it at any time. I won't, but I can choose to.

[quote]I guess it depends on how you define support.[/quote]

[quote] During his public life Jesus not only forgave sins, but also made plain the effect of this forgiveness: he reintegrated forgiven sinners into the community of the People of God from which sin had alienated or even excluded them. A remarkable sign of this is the fact that Jesus receives sinners at his table, a gesture that expresses in an astonishing way both God's forgiveness and the return to the bosom of the People of God.[/quote]

I think this is where folks (we the royal priesthood) can miss the boat. Too often I think we leave things as "This is what the Church teaches" and forget what the Catechism teaches us about the reintegration of sinners i.e. the broken.



[quote] My being Catholic does not depend on whether the people in my church are supportive or not.[/quote]

But it has. All the way to your first initiation

[quote] Baptism is the sacrament of faith. But faith needs the community of believers. It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe. The faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop. The catechumen or the godparent is asked: "What do you ask of God's Church?" The response is: "Faith!"[/quote]

It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe. We very much need each other. That is why this blog is so popular. Because we all have an internal calling to belong.

And i believe we forget that when dealing with those who feel disenfranchised.

Edited February 16, 2005 by jaime

[Theoketos]

This is private relevation at Famitma...I think Mary said in a vision that souls fall into hell like snowflakes.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 16 2005, 04:43 PM'] cmotherofpirl

I love the Church. I know the Church very well and I am free to leave it at any time. I won't, but I can choose to.





I think this is where folks (we the royal priesthood) can miss the boat. Too often I think we leave things as "This is what the Church teaches" and forget what the Catechism teaches us about the reintegration of sinners i.e. the broken.





But it has. All the way to your first initiation



It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe. We very much need each other. That is why this blog is so popular. Because we all have an internal calling to belong.

And i believe we forget that when dealing with those who feel disenfranchised. [/quote]
So how to do you define Chruch support?

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

[quote name='Specter' date='Feb 15 2005, 07:32 PM'] "There are not 100 people who hate the Catholic Church; But there are millions who hate what they believe the Catholic Church to be." [/quote]
Amen!