Extra ecclesiam nulla salus - moi?

[Matt Black]

By way of partial introduction about myself and not being sure whether to post this here or on another part of the Phorum, can people, especially any ordained priests here, explain arts 846 and 847 of the Catechism to me, with particular reference to:-

1. I was baptised and brought up a Catholic, including Catholic schooling until age 12
2. I stopped going to church at age 12, mainly out of boredom and beacuse I didn't really understand what was being taught; also I attended a private school run by the Salesians which basically, without going in to too many details, put me off Catholicism
3. I underwent an evangelical-style conversion experience/ committed by life to Christ etc at 16 and have been firmly within the evangelical stream, sometimes more charismatic, other times more conservative than others, and don't accept sacramental soteriology..
4. According to the above, does the Catholic Church say I'm damned?


Yours in Christ

Matt

PS The quote in art 846 comes from art 14 of Lumen Gentium

[Brother Adam]

Ah, the infamous 'no salvation' clause. While not an ordained priest, no the Catholic Church does not say you are damned any more than any other Protestant is damned. You are a seperated Christian brethren.

[Matt Black]

But am I deemed to have 'known that the Church was necessary to salvation', having been brought up a Catholic?

Yours in Christ

Matt

[Brother Adam]

If you have formally renounced the Catholic faith you are at this time not accountable to the tenants and laws governing Catholics. Unless you have done so knowing that the Christian (Catholic) faith is the true faith.

There is something to be said here for invincible and vincible ignorance. But I don't believe you are clasping your hands over your ears singing "lalalalala" refusing to hear what the Church has to say. You are actively and continuely searching for truth, longing to always be closer to Christ, and praying to follow God's will. That is indeed commendable, certianly not damnable.

[Dave]

[quote name='Matt Black' date='Feb 14 2005, 12:03 PM'] But am I deemed to have 'known that the Church was necessary to salvation', having been brought up a Catholic? [/quote]
Just because someone is raised Catholic doesn't automatically mean they "know that the Church was necessary to salvation." Unfortunately, today lots and lots of Catholics don't know their faith very well or at all.

[Cam42]

Matt,

Welcome to Phatmass, I hope that you have as much fun here as I do. I am relatively new as well, but I think that I can give you an explaination that may help some.

[quote]How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?  Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. (CCC 846)[/quote]

What is necessary for membership in the Church are Sacramental baptism and faith.

So, based upon your statement:
[quote]I was baptised and brought up a Catholic, including Catholic schooling until age 12[/quote]

[quote]The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation....The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." (CCC 1257)[/quote]

So, insofar as you are baptized, you have the 1st requisite of salvation. Good news.

The rest of your dilemma gets a little complicated. But in order to keep it simple, I will speak of a couple of principles that apply to Catholics specifically.

You may suffer from Involutary doubt, which is defined as:
[quote]Involuntary doubt refers to hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. (CCC 2088)[/quote]

With that being said, you may also suffer from Incredulity, which is defined as:
[quote]Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. (CCC 2089)[/quote]

Finally, I cannot pass judgment upon you, nor do I want to, but as you reflect upon your status, the Church has clear definitions as to what the positions of those who are fallen away are.

Does all of this prohibit your entry into heaven? I guess that is for God to decide, but they are sins against faith.

So, your salvation is guaranteed by your Sacramental baptism, but is put into jeopardy because of lack of Faith.

How is that for being non-committal?

Cam42

[Matt Black]

In so far as I am qualified to pass judgement on myself(!), I'd say involuntary doubt rather than incredulity is the problem here

Yours in Christ

Matt

[Cam42]

[quote]I'd say involuntary doubt rather than incredulity is the problem here
[/quote]

Well.....keep hanging around. Like all Catholics/fallen away Catholics, catechesis is the answer. If you ask honest and real questions, it can be answered by someone here.....Glad to have you aboard.

Cam42

[Guest Aluigi]

you are committing a sin of grave matter by remaining outside of the Church of Jesus Christ. repent and come back into full communion with the Church Christ commisioned to spread His message or I can not say either way what your fate will be after death. The Church is absolutely necessary for your salvation.

Not everyone who says to Him "Lord, Lord" will enter into the kingdom.

If you reject His Apostles, you reject Him. If you reject the bishops who validly trace their line strait back to the apostles, you reject Him. You are rejecting Christ right now, and if you love Him as I'm sure you do, you should do what He wills.

We do not judge souls. I would not say you are inculpably (invincibly) ignorant. I would not say you are culpably (vincibly) ignorant. But if you are culpably ignorant with consent of your will, you have sinned against Jesus Christ and His Church, you have put your eternal soul in danger, and have grieved God who wishes all to be saved through the Church He instituted.

A lot of people try to sugarcoat it for you. And technically they are right that the Church allows the possibility for those who are inculpably ignorant. But I do not know your soul. That's something you have to ask yourself, you must examine your own heart and wonder whehter or not you are rejecting Him whom you profess as your Personal Lord and Savior. Do not judge based on your failure to know Christ in the Church, judge on whether now that you do know Him the Church might hold an untapped treasure you never saw before.

So in answer to your question: all the catechesis and theological knowledge in the world would not qualify anyone buy Jesus Christ to answer that. (maybe someone God had given the charism of reading souls, but that would only be because Jesus gave them that special gift to help you out). It is true, outside the Church there is no salvation, in that rejecting the Church means rejecting Salvation. Are you culpable? That's something you have to ask yourself and Christ.

Edited February 14, 2005 by Aluigi

[Brother Adam]

Aluigi, You are disciple of Edwards aren't you?

Edited February 14, 2005 by Brother Adam

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Matt Black' date='Feb 14 2005, 09:03 AM'] But am I deemed to have 'known that the Church was necessary to salvation', having been brought up a Catholic?

Yours in Christ

Matt [/quote]
If a man is truly invincibly ignorant of the necessity of full and integral communion with God in His one Catholic Church, it follows that he would not be culpable for his objective error in this particular case, and so the error in question would not be imputable to him. But if he is vincibly ignorant, i.e., willfully ignorant of this truth of the faith, then as a matter of course it follows that he would be culpable for his error, and as a consequence of this he would be damned (unless he were to repent of his error and were to enter into Christ's Catholic Church before his death). In other words, it is not possible for a man to enter into the beatific vision, if, through his own fault, he remains separated from Christ's Catholic Church.

[Brother Adam]

This is just me trying to put myself in your shoes, since I was in them only months ago:

If you were to understand though, through your own facilities that God desired you to be Baptist, and that is what you knew, and were always seeking to God's will in your life, it is by no means impossible for you to be saved. The key here is that you are searching, and your longing is for truth. Which is why it is good to sit here and discuss doctrine as we started to on the other thread. How can one expect you to adhere to something you believe is un-Christian?

While Aluigi's statments are true, it is much easier to understand them as a Catholic, and easy to misunderstand what he is saying as a Protestant.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Matt Black' date='Feb 14 2005, 10:48 AM'] 3. I underwent an evangelical-style conversion experience/ committed by life to Christ etc at 16 and have been firmly within the evangelical stream, sometimes more charismatic, other times more conservative than others, and don't accept sacramental soteriology..
[/quote]
There are charismatic Catholics. Although there are some that have the "I have the Spirit, who needs the Church?" mentality, there are also plenty that are orthodox. Try them out, they might be a good fit for you.

As far as the "sacramental soteriology" is concerned, all I can say is to study what the sacraments are and the biblical bases for them. You see, even though the word "sacrament" itself is not in the bible (except as the Latin word for "sign" in the Latin Vulgate version of the bible), each sacrament itself is in the bible, even if not in the template that we are hoping for. But don't quit over not understanding something, it takes time - even a lifetime! (For example, I just learned some new things about purgatory in the bible just last week!).