Who Killed Jesus?

[Jaime]

[quote]  I think the question needs to be re-worded.[/quote]

How would you reword the question?

[Tink]

As in
'Who brought about the death of Jesus?'
or
'Who was directly responsible for the sentencing and death of Jesus?'

Two very different questions.

[musturde]

[quote name='james' date='Feb 13 2005, 07:05 PM'] What I've stated is firmly based in nearly 2000 years of church teaching on the crucifixion. [/quote]
I see where you're going but the Jews weren't responsible for Jesus' death. Without our sins, the Jews wouldn't have done this. The point is, whether it was technically the roman soldiers of the jewish people who actually did sentence Jesus to die, he knew about it and came FOR it to happen.

[Cam42]

Well James,

[quote]But no amount of ecumenical rhetoric can change facts.[/quote]

How about an infallible teaching of the Church?

[quote]The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church's faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church's Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion. (Fidei Depostium #3)[/quote]

That would mean, infallible based upon the Ordinary Magisterium.

So, with that being said, this is a statemtent that is free from doctrinal error, at least according to the Catholic Church.

[quote]The historical complexity of Jesus' trial is apparent in the Gospel accounts. The personal sin of the participants (Judas, the Sanhedrin, Pilate) is known to God alone. Hence we cannot lay responsibility for the trial on the Jews in Jerusalem as a whole, despite the outcry of a manipulated crowd and the global reproaches contained in the apostles' calls to conversion after Pentecost. (CCC #597)[/quote]

This is in direct conflict with your statement:
[quote]However, all mankind does not share the same responsibility for the crucifixion. The Sanhedrin delivered Christ to the Roman authorities and demanded His execution. Even despite Pilate's protest that he found no blame in Christ, the Jews cried out for His blood.[/quote]

Amazingly enough, if you would have read Nostra Aetate, you would have seen that the Vatican Council II affirmed this.

[quote]True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ; [b]still, what happened in His passion [u]cannot be charged against all the Jews,[/u] without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today.[/b] Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ. (Nostra Aetate #4)[/quote]

It goes on to say:
[quote]Besides, as the Church has always held and holds now, Christ underwent His passion and death freely, because of the sins of men and out of infinite love, in order that all may reach salvation. It is, therefore, the burden of the Church's preaching to proclaim the cross of Christ as the sign of God's all-embracing love and as the fountain from which every grace flows. (Nostra Aetate #4)[/quote]

Do you want to ammend your statement?

Cam42

[Cam42]

No, I like the question the way it is.....it forces one to think through one's answer before answering and/or posting.

Thanks,

Cam42

[Donna]

Is there an understanding problem?

Passion Play (some main characters):

1) Pilate
2) Rome
3)Sanhedrin
4) Jews
5) Judas


The Jews, as in "4)" - and "3)" as well, obviously - crucified Him.

Are people reading an answer of "the Jews" out of reference? Aren't we talking about Calvary and what lead up to it? Were those ethnic brethren of Jesus who
chose Barabas to be let free and Jesus to die, Swedes?

[AngelofJesus]

[quote name='Donna' date='Feb 14 2005, 12:06 AM'] Is there an understanding problem?

Passion Play (some main characters):

1) Pilate
2) Rome
3)Sanhedrin
4) Jews
5) Judas


The Jews, as in "4)" - and "3)" as well, obviously - crucified Him.

Are people reading an answer of "the Jews" out of reference? Aren't we talking about Calvary and what lead up to it? Were those ethnic brethren of Jesus who
chose Barabas to be let free and Jesus to die, Swedes? [/quote]
No, they were French.


Are you trying to say that the Jews and the Sanhedrin are below us? And because you are not Jewish you are not guilty of nailing Jesus to the cross? What is the meaning of Christ's death? Is it not to atone for your sins? Who in here is without sin and can say I did not kill Jesus, the Jews did?

[james]

[quote name='Cam42'][quote name='James']But no amount of ecumenical rhetoric can change facts.[/quote]

How about an infallible teaching of the Church?[/quote]

Your reasoning appears to be backwards.

The Church cannot transform error into truth through it's teachings.

The church recognizes truth as it exists and teaches accordingly.

The Gospel account of the crucifixion leaves little doubt who seized our Lord in the garden of Gethsemane while He prayed as if He was a some kind of violent criminal; subjected Him to a nighttime interrogation; handed Him over to the Roman authorities demanding His execution; and then cried for His blood even though the Roman authorities found Him blameless.

If someone interprets the Catholic catechism in a way that contradicts Biblical scripture, we know that the problem lies not with scripture but somewhere else.

It's well worth pointing out that the rabbis who wrote the Talmud credit the Sanhedrin with responsibility for Christ's execution and they reason that the Sanhedrin was justified in executing Christ.

[quote]On Passover eve they hanged Jesus of Nazareth. [b]Jesus of Nazareth is going out to be stoned because he practiced sorcery; incited, and led Israel astray.[/b] Whoever knows of an argument that can be proposed in his favor should come and present that argument on his behalf.

[b]But the judges of the Sanhedrin did not find an argument in his favor and so they executed him on Passover eve.[/b] Did Jesus of Nazareth deserve that such a search be made for an argument in his favor? Surely he incited others to idol worship, and regarding such a person the Torah says, "You shall not spare, no, nor shall you conceal him," teaching that no effort should be made to find arguments that might lead to his acquittal.

Rather, it must be the case that Jesus was different because he had close connections with the non-Jewish authorities and those authorities were interested in his acquittal. Thus, it was necessary to give him all the opportunity to clear himself. [b]But was Jesus deserving of a search for an argument in his favor? He was an inciter, and the Torah says, "you shall not spare, nor shall you conceal him." [/b](Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, folio 43a)[/quote]

What I have stated may not be consistant with the ecumenical spirit of the day, but it is firmly based in the Gospel, nearly 2000 years of Catholic church teaching, and it is consistant with the Talmudic account of Christ's execution.

Edited February 14, 2005 by james

[cmotherofpirl]

So whichever jews who happened to be there and screamed for his blood [i]could [/i]be judged guilty by God. And your point is?
Church teaching on the topic:

True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ; still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ. (Nostra Aetate #4)

What about all the jews who supported Jesus? What about the cowardly disciples who conveniently dissappeared?

[Cam42]

Ok everyone,

Here is my reasoning as to why I don't believe it was the Jews. I am also repsonding at the same time to another poster on this thread.

[quote]Your reasoning appears to be backwards.[/quote]

Ah they can be deceiving can't they; appearances?

Let's take a look at the scriptural references for the quotes others and myself posted, shall we?

CCC 597 (cf Mk 15:11, Acts 2:23, 36; 3:13-14; 4:10; 5:30; 7:52; 10:39; 13:27-28; 1 Thess 2:14-15; Lk 23:34; Acts 3:17; Mt 27:25; cf Acts 5:28; 18:6; {our good friend} Nostra Aetate no.4)

CCC 598 (Roman Catechism I, 5, 11; cf Heb 12:3; Mt 25:45; Acts 9:4-5)

Nostra Aetate (cf. John. 19:6)

[quote]If someone interprets the Catholic catechism in a way that contradicts Biblical scripture, we know that the problem lies not with scripture but somewhere else.[/quote]

So, who is that someone? If you mean me, I am sorry, but I am not the one in error. I have just shown you that all four Gospels are cited, as well as Acts and two other NT books. But what I find to be most telling is; the other quotations that are used to support the points of the posters and myself to this thread are quotations from the Roman Catechism promulgated at the Council of Trent [b]AND[/b] Vatican Council II. Interesting, no?

So, what can we gather? The Tradition of the Church has vindicated the false notion that it was the Jews who killed Jesus. It was not their responsibility. Whose was it? Was it Pilate? He handed down the sentence of death. The Jews had no authority. Was it Caiaphas? He had Jesus arrested and taken to Pilate. Was it Adam and Eve, through that first sin in the Garden of Eden? They forced God's hand and made it necessary for the Redeemer; the Messiah to save the World. Or was it all mankind from Adam through the end of the world, by sharing in that first sin of Adam?

I said that I would hold my response until later. It is later.

[quote]What I have stated may not be consistant with the ecumenical spirit of the day, but it is firmly based in the Gospel, nearly 2000 years of Catholic church teaching....[/quote]

It is not consistent with nearly 2000 years of Catholic church teaching, as witnessed by Sacred Scripture and the Sacred Tradition promulgated by two infallible Ecumenical Councils of the Roman Catholic Church (ie. The Roman Catechism and the Catechism (1562) of the Catholic Church (1992). Not to be confused with the publication dates of 1566 and 1994 respectively.)

I respectfully request that the discussion of the Talmudic Jews be tabled. This is not the point of the poll. Thanks.

Cam42

[Cam42]

So,

Here is a thought. Were not two of Jesus' closest disciples outside the Twelve Pharisees and members of the Sanhedrin?

Just curious. Who wants to post the names?

Cam42

Edited February 14, 2005 by Cam42

[Jaime]

Who are Nicodemus(naqdimon is the hebrew form of the name Nicodemus found in the Talmud) and Joseph of Arimathea Alex?


I'll take "Antisemiticism smells of elderberries" for a thousand

[Cam42]

You win the daily double!!!!!!

Nice work Himester!!!!!

"Anti-Semitism smells of elderberries" is now closed!

Cam42

Edited February 14, 2005 by Cam42

[toledo_jesus]

Actually, to be accurate, the Romans ended the life of Jesus. As part of the agreement between Rome and Judea, Jews were not conscripted into the army, had freedom to practice their religion, but had to pay taxes and refer capital crimes to the Roman governor. The Jews actually had it easy. They were not required to worship the Emperor.
The Jewish authorities dealt with Jesus as one who was challenging them. They turned him over to the Romans, who couldn't find anything he'd done. Pilate could have let Jesus go but for the outcry. Pilate had been putting down insurrections for years and he wasn't about to have a riot in Jerusalem. So he caved.
Those Jews were very mean. The Romans were very bad. BUT...
Jesus was sacrificed because of all our sins. That includes the Jews and the Romans. Ultimately, we are responsible, as surely as if we took the hammer in our hands and nailed him to that cross ourselves.

[james]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Feb 14 2005, 07:35 AM'] So whichever jews who happened to be there and screamed for his blood [i]could [/i]be judged guilty by God. And your point is?
Church teaching on the topic:

True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ; still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews... [/quote]
You say tomato, I say tomato...

I have not blamed all Jews for the crucifixion, although some here seem to be all too eager to interpret me that way.

What I wrote is scripturally and historically sound and is supported by the Talmudic account of Christ's execution.


[quote name='Cam42']I respectfully request that the discussion of the Talmudic Jews be tabled. [/quote]

Of course you do, because it's historical evidence that contradicts your position. You apparently have set up this thread so that you can win a debate, not to disclose the historical truth.

Edited February 14, 2005 by james