Cam42 Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 I would like to reflect on the Passion Death and Ressurection of the Lord, during this Lenten Season. Play nice. Cam42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Zewe III Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 Whoever nailed him up is the one who killed him. I don't know which that is, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epiclesis Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 I can't vote. You don't have my answer as one of the choices. Jesus offered Himself up freely for us. If Jesus had not choosen to give of Himself freely, He would never have been crucified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Zewe III Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 [quote name='epiclesis' date='Feb 13 2005, 11:48 AM'] I can't vote. You don't have my answer as one of the choices. Jesus offered Himself up freely for us. If Jesus had not choosen to give of Himself freely, He would never have been crucified. [/quote] The question was who killed him. You seem to be implying that Jesus killed himself. Suicide is forbidden. JESUS = SINNAR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 Chris, Suicide is the taking of one's life when one does not have authority over life and death. Christ is God, and has that authority. He has the power to lay down his life, and the power to take it up again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Zewe III Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Feb 13 2005, 12:01 PM'] Chris, Suicide is the taking of one's life when one does not have authority over life and death. Christ is God, and has that authority. He has the power to lay down his life, and the power to take it up again. [/quote] Worst. Loophole. Ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epiclesis Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 Chris, do your parents know how you are spending your time? I can't believe that this is what your father has in mind when he pays the internet bill each month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted February 13, 2005 Author Share Posted February 13, 2005 OK, remember the "play nice" part? Christ was fully human and fully divine. One cannot separate the two. First, Insofar as he was divine, he had the power to do what Eremite said. But, he didn't. Second, insofar as he was human, he had to suffer death, in order to fulfill the divine revelation that had been given to the Jewish people. This established him as the Messiah. With those oversimplified statemtents, I will say this. Christ entered into the world to save mankind. But, the question is who killed him. He did in fact die. He did not die a natural death. He was killed, in his human form. Who did it? Was it Pilate? Was it Caiaphas? etc.... I contend that it was all mankind that killed him. I will reserve my comments on why for later. I want to see what others think. This is meant to spur Lenten reflection not to start a "Yo Mamma" arguement. Thoughtful and accurate posting would be appreciated. Thanks, Cam42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tink Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 Well, in attempts to divert this thread from the overly immature path it has taken, I will say this. We are all responsible for Christ's death because we all nail Him to that cross every time we sin against Him. It really doesn't matter much who physically put the nails in His hands and feet, but rather that we, collectively are responsible for His passion. [quote] [b] Jews are not collectively responsible for Jesus' death [/b] 597 The historical complexity of Jesus' trial is apparent in the Gospel accounts. The personal sin of the participants (Judas, the Sanhedrin, Pilate) is known to God alone. Hence we cannot lay responsibility for the trial on the Jews in Jerusalem as a whole, despite the outcry of a manipulated crowd and the global reproaches contained in the apostles' calls to conversion after Pentecost.385 Jesus himself, in forgiving them on the cross, and Peter in following suit, both accept "the ignorance" of the Jews of Jerusalem and even of their leaders.386 Still less can we extend responsibility to other Jews of different times and places, based merely on the crowd's cry: "His blood be on us and on our children!", a formula for ratifying a judicial sentence.387 As the Church declared at the Second Vatican Council: . . . [N]either all Jews indiscriminately at that time, nor Jews today, can be charged with the crimes committed during his Passion. . . [T]he Jews should not be spoken of as rejected or accursed as if this followed from holy Scripture.388 [b]All sinners were the authors of Christ's Passion [/b] 598 In her Magisterial teaching of the faith and in the witness of her saints, the Church has never forgotten that "sinners were the authors and the ministers of all the sufferings that the divine Redeemer endured."389 Taking into account the fact that our sins affect Christ himself,390 the Church does not hesitate to impute to Christians the gravest responsibility for the torments inflicted upon Jesus, a responsibility with which they have all too often burdened the Jews alone: We must regard as guilty all those who continue to relapse into their sins. Since our sins made the Lord Christ suffer the torment of the cross, those who plunge themselves into disorders and crimes crucify the Son of God anew in their hearts (for he is in them) and hold him up to contempt. And it can be seen that our crime in this case is greater in us than in the Jews. As for them, according to the witness of the Apostle, "None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." We, however, profess to know him. And when we deny him by our deeds, we in some way seem to lay violent hands on him.391 Nor did demons crucify him; it is you who have crucified him and crucify him still, when you delight in your vices and sins.392 -the Catechism of the Catholic Church[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musturde Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 who said the Jews? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 (edited) Christ's sacrifice was made necessary by the original sin of Adam and Eve. Justice required that a sacrifice be made in atonement for that sin. God, in His mercy, provided the necessary sacrifice in the crucifixion of His own Son. All of mankind collectively bears the guilt of the original sin of Adam and Eve. However, all mankind does not share the same responsibility for the crucifixion. The Sanhedrin delivered Christ to the Roman authorities and demanded His execution. Even despite Pilate's protest that he found no blame in Christ, the Jews cried out for His blood. Both the Christian Gospels and the Talmud of Judaism bear witness to this fact. These facts get distorted by the vague language that is so much a part of ecumenicism today. But no amount of ecumenical rhetoric can change facts. Edited February 14, 2005 by james Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 Musturde, I think you have your answer now So James, it is your opinion that Catholic teaching is in error on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 What I've stated is firmly based in nearly 2000 years of church teaching on the crucifixion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 OR Completely against the Catechism. Is the Catechism in error? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 I think the question needs to be re-worded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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