Imperialism

[save ferris 101]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Feb 14 2005, 10:43 PM'] Abundant US reference in your first post. JasJis has made a point. I'll ask you to reduce this thread to your question or an attack on US policy. Please don't do both, as to clarify what you are asking and if indeed you are asking.

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
It is a question!!!! I just put that becuase it was the first thing that popped into my head. You can apply it to any recent acts of imperialism, whatever, it doesn't matter, I just wanted to know if the Church has said or teaches anything concerning imperialism.

And actually, I mention the U.S. once :thumb:

[yiannii]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Feb 15 2005, 01:11 AM'] What makes the UN more of a moral authority than the US? France and Russia and other countries accept or ignore it as they find politically expedient. It's about $$. France & Russian had financial intrests is leaving the status quo in Iraq. Appeasement isn't always the best policy, as the world learned prior to WW-2. If the US policy isn't an issue in your question, why bring it up and defend your opinion?

I suggest you start another thread and clearly ask your question about the Church teachings or start another thread and clearly state your opinion about US policy. Don't do both together and deny 1/2 of what you're doing.

Here's another question for you. If the UN is a real moral authority, why has nothing been done in the Sudan? [/quote]
The UN is a united front of many many countries who are supposed to work together towards world peace. The UN was set up to prevent one nation from invading another nation when they personally felt necessary - what gives the US a right to disobey a world organisation?

This is just plain wrong - and you can not deny this very fact: the US went against and outside the UN and this is a disgrace. I am angry that any nation can get away with such an offence with no real consequences. I know that you are a patriotic American but please look past your own bias.

:: You cannot justify the means by an outcome.
:: The Church teaches that you may not use objectively wrong means even for a desired good outcome - even the Holy Father spoke out against such actions.


As for the Sudan crisis; I would like to see where you got your information regarding the UN doing nothing for this crisis. Thanks.

Yiannii~

[jasJis]

yianni,
Please research the Holy Father's reasons in not agreeing going into Iraq at that time did not meet the criteria for a 'Just War'. The Holy Father poposed 'subjective' opinion, and did not agree with Mr. Bush's 'subjective' opinion in evaluating the current circumstances. Sorry. The Pope did not proclaime and 'infallible' position. He gave his opinion, which I value morally more than Bush's, but I am honest enough to recognize it for what it was/is, not make it into something it's not.

Only believe 1/2 of what you hear from both sides and you'll have a more open mind to the their opinions. There issues are much more than invading a 'sovreign' County. The US did not do it completely alone. Many world leaders supported and participated despite danger to their political support at home. Countries and people who disagreed of course promoted and spouted their own political agenda that is picked up by the anti-American factions in the world media.

Again, we digress from the "issue" originally intended in this thread. Let's either get back on track, or start another thread.

Edit to add:
ferris,
An example was not needed to pose your question. Your particular example is inflammatory and subjectively opinionated so it detracts from the clarity of asking about Church teaching.

Edited February 15, 2005 by jasJis

[MichaelFilo]

The UN is not what it was when the US signed up. That aside, I hold the pope's view above any other view on the war, and as such will base my views from there. The facts seem to agree with the Holy Father's feelings about this war.

About imperialism, waging wars for gain is wrong, it has never been part of the just war doctrine. Of course, this is only the church's teaching on imperialism that uses war to meet it's ends. The enslaved south American countries under American rule were also unjustly done so. Imperialism is an exponentiated version of selfishness, and the churhc has not a word of acceptance for it. So, while the Churhc never discusses Imperialism, it may be understood that because Imperialism is only a great demonstration of selifishness, and as such is objectivly wrong.

God bless,
Mikey

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='yiannii' date='Feb 15 2005, 02:43 AM'] The UN is a united front of many many countries who are supposed to work together towards world peace. The UN was set up to prevent one nation from invading another nation when they personally felt necessary - what gives the US a right to disobey a world organisation?

This is just plain wrong - and you can not deny this very fact: the US went against and outside the UN and this is a disgrace. I am angry that any nation can get away with such an offence with no real consequences. I know that you are a patriotic American but please look past your own bias.

:: You cannot justify the means by an outcome.
:: The Church teaches that you may not use objectively wrong means even for a desired good outcome - even the Holy Father spoke out against such actions.


As for the Sudan crisis; I would like to see where you got your information regarding the UN doing nothing for this crisis. Thanks.

Yiannii~ [/quote]
Most Americans give no credence to anything the UN does, its considered a joke and a sham organization.

[save ferris 101]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Feb 15 2005, 04:37 PM'] The UN is not what it was when the US signed up. That aside, I hold the pope's view above any other view on the war, and as such will base my views from there. The facts seem to agree with the Holy Father's feelings about this war.

About imperialism, waging wars for gain is wrong, it has never been part of the just war doctrine. Of course, this is only the church's teaching on imperialism that uses war to meet it's ends. The enslaved south American countries under American rule were also unjustly done so. Imperialism is an exponentiated version of selfishness, and the churhc has not a word of acceptance for it. So, while the Churhc never discusses Imperialism, it may be understood that because Imperialism is only a great demonstration of selifishness, and as such is objectivly wrong.

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
oic. Thanks for finally answering my question, much appreciated.

[MichaelFilo]

From my altogether too brief look online, the Church hasn't spoken about it any way, and so She doesn't reject it or support it. However, that leaves you to decide. You can choose to accept or reject my logic, it's mearly what I think. however, on the Catholic links I've seen in my search the word imperalism is used with negative meaning, not a positive one.

Example

[quote]the great struggle between imperialism and the Holy See. [/quote]

From [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07524a.htm"]Newadvent.org[/url]

God bless,
Mikey

Edited February 15, 2005 by MichaelFilo

[yiannii]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Feb 15 2005, 11:38 PM'] yianni,
Please research the Holy Father's reasons in not agreeing going into Iraq at that time did not meet the criteria for a 'Just War'. The Holy Father poposed 'subjective' opinion, and did not agree with Mr. Bush's 'subjective' opinion in evaluating the current circumstances. Sorry. The Pope did not proclaime and 'infallible' position. He gave his opinion, which I value morally more than Bush's, but I am honest enough to recognize it for what it was/is, not make it into something it's not.

Only believe 1/2 of what you hear from both sides and you'll have a more open mind to the their opinions. There issues are much more than invading a 'sovreign' County. The US did not do it completely alone. Many world leaders supported and participated despite danger to their political support at home. Countries and people who disagreed of course promoted and spouted their own political agenda that is picked up by the anti-American factions in the world media.

Again, we digress from the "issue" originally intended in this thread. Let's either get back on track, or start another thread.

Edit to add:
ferris,
An example was not needed to pose your question. Your particular example is inflammatory and subjectively opinionated so it detracts from the clarity of asking about Church teaching. [/quote]
I still think no justification has been reached regarding the "coalition of the willing". And don't get me wrong I am not on the 'left wing' anti-American bandwagon - I was also against Australia's involvement in the war too.

And I am glad that we are being responsible in sticking it out in there - I would hate to see another incident like Afghanistan occur.

P.S. sorry for continuing off the topic....

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Feb 15 2005, 11:53 PM'] Most Americans give no credence to anything the UN does, its considered a joke and a sham organization. [/quote]
This is the downside to democracy.