Christians persecuted? In America?

[argent_paladin]

I am trying to say that just because Republicans don't desire to threaten people with force if they don't turn over their money to programs that "help" the poor (but more often just employ more government workers), that doesn't mean that they are apathetic, as you say. It may simply mean that they respect the rights of people to make their own choices regarding the manner they wish to help the poor and the groups they wish to contribute to. As I mentioned before, Christians are the most generous group and the vast majority of Repubs are Christians. Private charity works. We saw it in Indonesia. And we see it in every Catholic hospital and school in America.

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='argent_paladin' date='Feb 25 2005, 04:35 AM'] 1. My point still stands. Logically speaking proving a negative is much harder than proving a positive. If I say, "Christians are being persecuted in America", all I have to do is produce two Christians who have been persecuted at some time to prove my point. To prove the statement than "No Christians are being persecuted in America", you have to somehow contact every single American and show that not even two of them were persecuted for their Christianity, out of 280 million. That is virtually impossible. Therefore, my anecdotal evidence is decisive and yours is worthless, because even if every single person you have ever met in your life has never been persecuted, that still wouldn't disprove my point. [/quote]
That's all well and good, but your point is moot, because no one is arguing that "no christians are persecuted". The argument is that everyone is persecuted in some way or another, so christians aren't special in that respect.

[quote]2. You are correct. Theists are being persecuted, not just Christians. I don't doubt that atheists are persecuted as well. I detest all forms of persecution.  But this debate began because some denied that Christians were persecuted because they are the majority, not because any of us denied that atheists were persecuted.[/quote]

My denial was that [i]I[/i] (or AtheistAlex) could be the one persecuting christians. We have no power to persecute.

[AtheistAlex]

[quote name='argent_paladin' date='Feb 25 2005, 05:25 AM'] I am trying to say that just because Republicans don't desire to threaten people with force if they don't turn over their money to programs that "help" the poor (but more often just employ more government workers), that doesn't mean that they are apathetic, as you say. It may simply mean that they respect the rights of people to make their own choices regarding the manner they wish to help the poor and the groups they wish to contribute to. As I mentioned before, Christians are the most generous group and the vast majority of Repubs are Christians. Private charity works. We saw it in Indonesia. And we see it in every Catholic hospital and school in America. [/quote]
I think the government is an entity of the people, correct?

Then it would stand to reason that the government, or in other the entity of the people, should do whatever it can to provide the best lives possible to those people, and if they are derelict in that duty, or they wish to use their powers for any alternative motives than to help all people they serve have the greatest lives they can, then that government must be replaced.

That said, I agree that part of that idea is to allow people to make a choice, but what do we do if no contributions are made? Or what do we for the people who don't get those contributions because of a corrupt organization or poor bookkeeping? Should the government then shrug their shoulders, because the peolpe who contributed made the decision to put their money there? No, they have to go into action. And that's what I want, a government to go into action to resolve conflicts of human life that one person by themself cannot, so the general welfare can be promoted.

[argent_paladin]

[quote name='burnsspivey' date='Feb 25 2005, 11:47 AM'] That's all well and good, but your point is moot, because no one is arguing that "no christians are persecuted". The argument is that everyone is persecuted in some way or another, so christians aren't special in that respect.

[/quote]
Can't you even go to the trouble of scrolling up? You say that no one is arguing that "no christians are persecuted." Then what about this entry by Atheist Alex?
[quote] Christians, persecuted by who? Other Christians?
I have never understood the reasoning for this inferiority complex, this paranoia among many of the theistic persuasion, not only Christians, but Muslims, Jews, (well...) etc.

Theists, esp. those that are Republican, have a lock on all the forms of American government, other than local, and the culture as the country is currently going into a socially conservative turn. By this, I mean that the so-called elites, the ones shaping the current society, are conservative Christians. Who is persecuting the Christian faith?[/quote]

Questions such as "Christians, persecuted by who?" and "Who is persecuting the Christian faith?" certainly sound to me like an argument that "no christians are persecuted." Or at least, it was not unreasonable of me to infer that from the questions.

And, yes, I stand by my statement that Christians (and Jews and Muslims) are discriminated against in America primarily by atheists, agnostics and secularists. And that is what I meant by "you". I admit the discrimination is subtle, and persecution is an overstatement, but it is pervasive and systematic in certain spheres. Note, I didn't say everywhere (like where you live) nor highly visible. I don't know why we are arguing this since Limbaugh's book undoubtably contains numerous examples of persecution in America.

[AtheistAlex]

[quote name='argent_paladin' date='Feb 27 2005, 03:50 AM'] Can't you even go to the trouble of scrolling up?  You say that no one is arguing that "no christians are persecuted."  Then what about this entry by Atheist Alex?
[/quote]
Can't you go to the trouble of scrolling up?

[quote] Then, on a technical basis, you are correct. Christians are, like all other groups, persecuted. And so, I concede that point. [/quote]

Could I infer that this was me agreeing with you on a technical basis?

[quote]Or at least, it was not unreasonable of me to infer that from the questions.

And, yes, I stand by my statement that Christians (and Jews and Muslims) are discriminated against in America primarily by atheists, agnostics and secularists. And that is what I meant by "you". [/quote]

And so I when you said, that it was "you" who was persecuting you, you could understand why I could infer that you were instigating that it was me, then right?

And you still haven't proven [u]who[/u] has been persecuting this indeterminate number of persecuted Christians. Under your thesis of persecution, atheists are, also, persecuted, correct? Who's persecuting us? Christianity? Islam? Judaism?

Edited February 28, 2005 by AtheistAlex