Melchisedec Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 [quote name='argent_paladin' date='Feb 22 2005, 06:36 AM'] I am sorry if the facts don't fit your worldview. But facts are facts. It just doesn't make sense to you that Americans are donating billions of dollars to help Muslims they don't even know across the world in Indonesia (the most populous Muslim country in the world). At the same time, Muslims are actively killing fellow muslims in Iraq (terrorists there kill 50 native Iraqis for every American they kill), Dafur (Sudan) and other places. These are all documented facts. [/quote] Maybe you need to learn about Mother Theresa, and you might understand why its worth to help people, regardless of their religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchisedec Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 I dont see how in the age of the bush administration you could say 'christians are being persecuted'. Thats just stupid. How can the majority of america, who controll most of the power be being persecuted. Its absurd. The fact that a fundie baptist and his friends control everything might not bode well for catholics. But to an Atheist, its the same carp. You are being persecuted because you are not allowed to teach creationism in school? because you have to take away the ten commands statue. That is a very weak persecution. Maybe you need to look at real persecution and wake up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy the Ninja Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 [quote name='argent_paladin' date='Feb 22 2005, 06:36 AM'] I am sorry if the facts don't fit your worldview. But facts are facts. It just doesn't make sense to you that Americans are donating billions of dollars to help Muslims they don't even know across the world in Indonesia (the most populous Muslim country in the world). At the same time, Muslims are actively killing fellow muslims in Iraq (terrorists there kill 50 native Iraqis for every American they kill), Dafur (Sudan) and other places. These are all documented facts. [/quote] Excellent posts Argent! It is truly amazing how that completely fits with the information we've researched in my Middle East history class at my liberal college. As for persecution of Christians, well, sometimes it's rather blanlant, but mostly it is the underlying current. It's not terribly PC to be Christian right now, so the media is playing on everything that [i]isn't[/i] Christian. It may or may not pass. No use losing sleep over it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtins Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 mel- there is a form of persecution of christians going on right now. People may call themselves "christian" but do they really follow the teachings of christ??? Even if the majority of America is "Christian" I truly doubt that all them are practicing and beleiving and following. Just look at all the evil that is going on in the world- is that not a persecution of Christians??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argent_paladin Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Mel, I was merely using the amazing generosity of the (christian) west towards the (mostly muslim) victims of the tsunami to counter phatmasser777's claim of genocide (I assume Christian genocide of Muslims). The facts show that rather than genocide (killing a race), we are doing the opposite, geno-aid (helping a race). I am not at all criticizing the people who give. and to support the contention that Christians are being persecuted: 1. Hannukah, Kwanzaa, Ramadan displays are fine in most schools and public buildings, but even a Christmas tree or Santa Clause (only distantly related to Jesus Christ) are banned or frowned upon. 2. Christians are heavily underrepresented in the faculty and administrations of elite universities. 3. Christian organizations are being forced to go against their religious beliefs (in spite of the first amendment) because the law requires them to hire practicing homosexuals, offer contraception in their health plans, etc. Tax money goes to abortion clinics. These all violate the right to practice religion freely. 4. As I said before, only 20-30% of americans go to church weekly. That is a minority and a persecuted one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchisedec Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 [quote name='curtins' date='Feb 22 2005, 04:20 PM'] mel- there is a form of persecution of christians going on right now. People may call themselves "christian" but do they really follow the teachings of christ??? Even if the majority of America is "Christian" I truly doubt that all them are practicing and beleiving and following. Just look at all the evil that is going on in the world- is that not a persecution of Christians??? [/quote] You are extremely vague when you say persecutions. I dont see any persecutions going on. I can't tell a christian from a christian who is not a true christian. Because each of these christians, are telling me that the other is not a true christian. What I see is christianity trying to reinstate itself in areas of the government and there is opposition to that. But on the other hand, the people in power are sympathetic to their cause. Where you see persecution, I only see small battles being waged against the secular aspects of society and christians. Things like creationism being taught in public schools. That to me is not persecution, but an idealogical battle. If you are muslim in america, thats persecution. If you are christian in iraq, thats persecution. If you are a christian in america, thats the norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtheistAlex Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 (edited) [quote name='argent_paladin' date='Feb 22 2005, 04:26 PM'] Mel, I was merely using the amazing generosity of the (christian) west towards the (mostly muslim) victims of the tsunami to counter phatmasser777's claim of genocide (I assume Christian genocide of Muslims). The facts show that rather than genocide (killing a race), we are doing the opposite, geno-aid (helping a race). I am not at all criticizing the people who give. and to support the contention that Christians are being persecuted: 1. Hannukah, Kwanzaa, Ramadan displays are fine in most schools and public buildings, but even a Christmas tree or Santa Clause (only distantly related to Jesus Christ) are banned or frowned upon. 2. Christians are heavily underrepresented in the faculty and administrations of elite universities. 3. Christian organizations are being forced to go against their religious beliefs (in spite of the first amendment) because the law requires them to hire practicing homosexuals, offer contraception in their health plans, etc. Tax money goes to abortion clinics. These all violate the right to practice religion freely. 4. As I said before, only 20-30% of americans go to church weekly. That is a minority and a persecuted one. [/quote] First, your first reply to my question was, I believe saying that [i]I, myself[/i] persecuted Christians, without any listings of a pattern of persecutory behavior I have exhibited, making it more of a claim and less of an answer. So, yeah, that was pretty low, really. Now for this post, claim by claim. 1. As a black man, I had [u]never[/u] in my life seen a large public display of any Kwanzaa signs of any sort, and so I would have the right to call myself persecuted by the Christians who put there Merry Christmas signs up in [u]my[/u] school and around town? No, because displaying a greeting for one's holiday is one's own responsibility, given you have the legal right to. If the government at any level told you you could not put a X-Mas sign up on [u]private[/u] property, then there would a real problem. 2. How is this true? What study did you get this from? Blacks, like I said before, are extremely underrepresented throughout just about all universities, (other than black colleges) but we are not neccessarily persecuted. If your claim here is true, how does that make Christians persecuted? 3. Beliefs are internal, right? So, in reality, you don't have to go against them at all, what you have to do is follow the law. The law states that people, so as [i]not[/i] to [u]persecuted[/u] must be given an equality of opportunity. This means offering homosexuals a chance at a job, just as you would have to at least give a willing disabled person or a woman a [u]chance[/u] at the job. That's to create a "more perfect union". Abortions and contraceptives are being phased out by the Republican Congress anyway, so how are Christians being persecuted? Also, these are for the health and welfare of the people, I think that would be the sort of thing someone with convictions to aid humanity would be happy to support. Lastly for this part, even if these are truly against Christian beliefs, then how in the world does that persecute Christians? 4. No, no, my friend. If that stat is true, that's a minority, but that does not mean the other Americans who identify as Christian are not so. I mean, seriously, how can you judge who is a "real" Christian and who is not? And then you say "and a persecuted one." I thought this was supposed to be a point to prove your fellow Christians are being persecuted, not just an empty claim of such. Please tell me where I'm wrong here, but it does not sound like you have much of a case here. Edited February 22, 2005 by AtheistAlex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtins Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 muslims are not persecuted in america. That is nieave anti american rehtoric. How about those Christians in philidelphia- were they not persecuted for saying homosexuallity is wrong?? if you call that a "minor idiological battle" thats quite sad. the truth is christians are being persecuted everywhere- in some places more than others- more harshly in some places- in different ways in some places- but there is persecution of Christians all over the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtheistAlex Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 From what I hear, this "Repent America" has been making that incident out to be a Jim Crow from of hatred. Never mind that out of the eleven people protesting, a meager four or five were arrested. Never mind that they were disobeying orders from the police, which will get one arrested. And never mind that the Christians won't get any actual penalties for it, as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtins Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 disobeying the police- and exactly what was so horribly wrong that these protesters were doing that got them yelled at by the cops and arrested??? They were preaching the Bible- preaching the TRUTH to those opposing the truth- and they get yelled at by the cops for this and then arrested. If you dont call that persecution idk what it is. Its because our society is so caught up in the homosexual agenda and when fearless wariors reject that- they get thrown in jail.- that my freinds is persecution at its finest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchisedec Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 [quote name='curtins' date='Feb 22 2005, 07:01 PM'] disobeying the police- and exactly what was so horribly wrong that these protesters were doing that got them yelled at by the cops and arrested??? They were preaching the Bible- preaching the TRUTH to those opposing the truth- and they get yelled at by the cops for this and then arrested. If you dont call that persecution idk what it is. Its because our society is so caught up in the homosexual agenda and when fearless wariors reject that- they get thrown in jail.- that my freinds is persecution at its finest. [/quote] The world is on this so called homosexual agenda, but u want it to follow your agenda. While the bible is true to you, it is not to many law abiding americans. We should not have to be governed by your personal beliefs. The people you are referring to probably got arrested for breaking the law. Not because they were christian. In fact, I would venture to say that christian cops arrested them. Because they have a duty to uphold the laws of our nation. Christians are not being rounded up at nite simply because they are chritian. They are not being robbed or killed by anti-christian gangs. The government is not creating polcies and stipping christians of their personal freedoms. Christians are not prevented from being involved in polictics. Christians are not prevented from going to school or worshipping their god how they choose. In fact, the only place where christians are being persecuted is in your head. Its not persecution, but lack of your agenda being fulfilled that disturbs you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 [quote name='AtheistAlex' date='Feb 22 2005, 06:16 PM'] Abortions and contraceptives are being phased out by the Republican Congress anyway, so how are Christians being persecuted? Also, these are for the health and welfare of the people, I think that would be the sort of thing someone with convictions to aid humanity would be happy to support. [/quote] Abortion (the deliberate killing of an innocent human person) is definitely NOT "for the health and welfare of the people" Taking a human life is no way to improve human welfare. It is simply killing an innocent human being for someone else's convenience or comfort. And, as a side note, Congress has done very little to end abortions, and certainly no one has done anything to outlaw contraceptives. A little has been done regarding abortion (which ius better than nothing), but abortion, unfortunately, remains quite legal in this country. Abortion can only be outlawed by the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aloha918 Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 (edited) ahh Edited February 23, 2005 by aloha918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burnsspivey Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 [quote name='argent_paladin' date='Feb 20 2005, 12:29 AM'] " Christians, persecuted by who?" In a word: you. [/quote] Impossible. That would require non-christians to have more power than christians. It hasn't happened recently and it won't happen soon. [quote]Actually, of course, it is much more complicated. But if you think that Christians cannot be discriminated against in America what about prayer in schools? [/quote] Anyone who wants to is allowed to pray in school [quote]Christmas dispays?[/quote] Kwanzaa, Chanuka, Ramadan, Yule displays? [quote]Catholic health plans being forced to offer contraception? [/quote] Only if they accept state money, I believe. [quote]Atheists have a disproportionate influence in our country. [/quote] Could you point these powerful athiests out to me? I seem to be missing them in the sea of christians. [quote]They also are influential in the legal profession. [/quote] Strange, looking around most of what I see is christian of some form or other. (note: I work in the legal profession) [quote]Yes, Christians and conservatives are clawing their way back, but they still have a long way to go. If you think that conservative christians are in power, then why the gay marriage debate?[/quote] Because those of us who aren't christian won't let those of you who are shut us up. [quote]Even ten years ago, it wasn't on the radar screen and now it is on the verge of becoming legal in many states (or already is). This is even though most theists are against it. [/quote] Just as most people were against [i]Brown v. Board of Education[/i]. Funny how the majority can be wrong sometimes, isn't it? [quote]I think the number of real Christians is quite small, far less than the majority. Perhaps only 20% of Americans go to church weekly, which is about the bare minimum of involvement for a practicing, observant Christian. So, we can see why church-going Christians are truly in the minority and thus have real reason to fear persecution.[/quote] And herein lies part of the problem with christians in general. They can't even agree amongst themselves who qualifies as christian. Religion is self defined and just because you don't think a person is christian doesn't mean that they aren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burnsspivey Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Feb 23 2005, 11:41 AM'] Abortion (the deliberate killing of an innocent human person) is definitely NOT "for the health and welfare of the people" Taking a human life is no way to improve human welfare. It is simply killing an innocent human being for someone else's convenience or comfort. [/quote] [url="http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=welfare"]Welfare:[/url] 1 : the state of doing well especially in respect to good fortune, happiness, well-being, or prosperity [url="http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=well-being"]Well-being:[/url] the state of being happy, healthy, or prosperous Strictly definitionally, abortion IS "for the health and welfare of the people." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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