Are Jews going to Hell?

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='AngelofJesus' date='Feb 10 2005, 05:36 PM'] To me the reason I remained Catholic and became devout is because the church established by Jesus is the only church that has all the abundant graces needed for salvation. I am not saying that all the other churches including Judaism, do not have graces. I am sure they do, but only the Catholic church through Jesus are we able to fully realize the extent of God's graces here on earth. The graces received with our 7 sacraments, the graces received through the Mother of God, through the rosary, through the novenas, through the Holy Spirit with His gifts, and so on. Limitless, yet so attainable.

Another example (IMHO), say I want to build a house. Catholic church for me would be like Home Depot and the other curches are walmart, target, kmart, etc. [/quote]
But if I can get everything I need from my local hardware store, why should I have to go to home depot?

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Feb 10 2005, 06:35 PM'] The Nazis were not Christian. They were nihilistic neo-pagans. Hitler despised the Church and considered Christianity an evil "Semetic" religion.

I'm sick of all this modern carp that the Nazis were Christian and Christianity is responsible for Nazism. [/quote]
Than you can probably understand how I feel when people say that Atheism is responsible for communism. Its absurd. It was never my point to say the nazis were christian, thats completely irrelevent to my statement. Its the injustice the jews suffered under them, and the damnation there after they would face.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Feb 10 2005, 11:32 PM'] Are Jews going to hell? Yes.
So are alot of other people.

Did those Jews in the Nazi camps all not go to hell, I doubt it. Just because your a victim of one thing, doesn't mean your a good person. Yes, even if you are a victim of one of the ugliest things in history, doesn't mean your a good person. Jews, at least to the Phatmass Arab-born guy, are people too. They go to Heaven on God's terms. I also know alot of people have been the victims of ugly happenings, doesn't mean they go to heaven. If I lie, cheat, steal, gamble, use God's name in vain, and commit hideous sexual crimes, and then one day I'm dragged off into the slave market in some south Pacific country where I am mistreated, and shown nothing but cruelity, I still did all those things before. I'm not saying JEws ar ebad people, I'm just saying, evne if they were victims, doesn't mean theya ll go to Heaven.

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
But I would say they are good odds for good kind loving people to exist among 6 million, or would you disagree?

[Neal4Christ]

[quote][b]And if WE DONT KNOW, than how do we know if we follow this criteria to going heaven that we might not end up in hell instead?[/b][/quote]

You are equivocating here. He was referring to the individuals that you asked about. And his answer is true: we don't know. We don't know these people and we don't know what they believed. The path has been laid out by God through his revelation. That is a totally different subject. You took his answer for one question and applied it to another question.

God bless!

[Winchester]

Summation: We don't know who goes to Hell. It's best to try to convert people to Catholicism because it's the whole Truth and the way to Heaven.

We still don't know who goes to Hell, and the Church doesn't make that call, she never has, never will. It's between each of us and God.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Winchester' date='Feb 11 2005, 12:24 PM'] Summation: We don't know who goes to Hell. It's best to try to convert people to Catholicism because it's the whole Truth and the way to Heaven.

We still don't know who goes to Hell, and the Church doesn't make that call, she never has, never will. It's between each of us and God. [/quote]
If we don't know who goes to hell, than how can we know that being catholic prevents us from going to hell?

[jasJis]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Feb 11 2005, 01:08 PM'] If we don't know who goes to hell, than how can we know that being catholic prevents us from going to hell? [/quote]
Because we do know we are saved by Grace and we do know how to recognize Grace and we do know that the Catholic Church is the fullest source of Grace that the chances are better.

Being a member of a religion does not save you, saying yes to Grace does. Belonging to a religion is about seeking Grace and helping others seek Grace and finding Grace.

Seek and you shall find. Where should we look? Just the Bible? The Bible is a source of grace, but not the only source. When you are in an orchard do you eat off of only one tree? If you are in a well run and diversified farm, do you stay in only one orchard? If you are in the a fertile valley do you stay in just one farm? Though we can find nourishment in an orchard or farm, we can still move around for a well balanced meal. Though we can feed in many places within the valley, we will not find ample food in the desert.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Feb 11 2005, 01:25 PM'] Because we do know we are saved by Grace and we do know how to recognize Grace and we do know that the Catholic Church is the fullest source of Grace that the chances are better.

Being a member of a religion does not save you, saying yes to Grace does. Belonging to a religion is about seeking Grace and helping others seek Grace and finding Grace.

Seek and you shall find. Where should we look? Just the Bible? The Bible is a source of grace, but not the only source. When you are in an orchard do you eat off of only one tree? If you are in a well run and diversified farm, do you stay in only one orchard? If you are in the a fertile valley do you stay in just one farm? Though we can find nourishment in an orchard or farm, we can still move around for a well balanced meal. Though we can feed in many places within the valley, we will not find ample food in the desert. [/quote]
So than its possible to atain grace through another religion? How about a philosophy thats not dogmatic? Thanks for the answers everyone

[jasJis]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Feb 11 2005, 01:30 PM'] So than its possible to atain grace through another religion? How about a philosophy thats not dogmatic? Thanks for the answers everyone [/quote]
Yes, it is possible to attain grace through other religions, especially Christian religions. The source of grace in other religions is the Catholic Church, the original and fullness of Christian Grace.

While it is possible to attain Grace elsewhere, what about saying No to Grace? If one believes in Salvation vs. Condemnation, where Salvation is saying yes to Grace, than Condemnation is saying no to Grace. If one is saying Yes to Grace considering their human limitations to recognize it, and if that Yes leads them to God in the Jewish faith, then they could be saved. If one is saying No to Christianity to stay Jewish, one risks saying No to Salvation.

It's what you are saying yes to, and what you are saying no to.

What kind of philosopy is not dogmatic? There is none. Even an anarchist's philosophy is dogmatically opposed to order and control by others.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Feb 11 2005, 01:38 PM'] What kind of philosopy is not dogmatic? There is none. Even an anarchist's philosophy is dogmatically opposed to order and control by others. [/quote]
You're right. I was trying to say more of a person who maybe has various philosophical ideas but doesn't necessarily follow any text or doctrine. Just a person who is kind and has a unique view on life. Any chance of them getting into the pearly gates?

[jasJis]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Feb 11 2005, 01:47 PM'] You're right. I was trying to say more of a person who maybe has various philosophical ideas but doesn't necessarily follow any text or doctrine. Just a person who is kind and has a unique view on life. Any chance of them getting into the pearly gates? [/quote]
Of course. Read my previous answers and apply them to your 'unique' philosophy.

What are you saying 'yes' to? What are saying 'no' to? And why?

Are you unable to say 'yes' to aspects of certain religions? Search yourself to find out why? Is it because you emphatically want to say No to something like priests who abuse kids or televangelists who are all about money? You can be a great Christian and belong to a Baptist church and say no to what the televangelist is doing. You can be a great Christian ban bleong to the Catholic Church and sany not to what the priest is doing. Accepting a religion isn't necessarily accepting what's bad about it.

There are many things in Catholicism and other relgions that don't have to be agreed with. Some things are suggested for review and belief and udnerstanding, some things are mandatory, are some are simply acceptable to be believed if you so choose. The 'Dogma' are the core values of a philosophy. Identify them first and build on them.

[rufiokicks]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' date='Feb 10 2005, 04:55 PM'] We don't know who is going to hell, and it would be absolutely wrong to say that any GROUP of people is going to hell, because salvation hinges on an individual's accountability- was he ignorant, defiant of the Truth? We can never, and should never, say that we know the state of someone's salvation. [/quote]
I agree, we aren't in the place to judge. I find it hard to believe that all Jews would go to Hell; wasn't Jesus a Jew? I mean, granted, he was the Savior and rose from the dead, but hypothetically that would mean Jesus would go to Hell for being Jewish. Your religious affiliation alone doesn't determine your fate. Man will never know who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell.

[Melchisedec]

Its a very liberal view in general. Its basiclly saying that if you worship god, and you are under his 'grace', no matter what system it is (christian, jew, muslim) you will go to heaven. Jesus indeed was a jew, the fact that jews do not accept him as their messiah is ironic at best. This is a new view I am encountering, most of the christians I know are not catholic (i live in the south). So the view is very black and white. Accept jesus christ as your lord and savior and you got a ticket into heaven. All else, go to hell. So in their views, the jews that met their death by the death camps are all burning right now. THe catholic view from what I gather is, aslong as they were in 'grace' with god that it doesnt matter if they are christian or not, they still go to heaven. Interesting.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Feb 11 2005, 04:48 PM'] THe catholic view from what I gather is, aslong as they were in 'grace' with god that it doesnt matter if they are christian or not, they still go to heaven. Interesting. [/quote]
You must also understand that to be outside the Church and in a state of grace at the same time, you must basically live the moral teachings of the Church, despite never having heard of the Church. Catholicism teaches that one can know God [i]to an extent[/i] based on human reason. Reason alone, however, cannot account for the whole of Divine Revelation, and that is why the Church undertakes evangelization... To preach God revealed to man; his plan of salvation, Jesus the Christ.

[crusader1234]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Feb 11 2005, 09:13 AM'] A distinction must be made between [i]invincible ignorance[/i], which is not imputable to a man, and [i]vincible ignorance[/i], which is imputable to him. [i]Invincible ignorance[/i] is not willful, but is based upon the inability of the man in question to grasp the truth and correct his moral conscience, while [i]vincible ignorance[/i] is willful, in that it is a form of ignorance that could have been corrected, but which, for whatever reason, was not corrected. Now, when a man judges another man, he is in fact only judging the objective nature of the other man's actions, and so he is not judging the man's heart. God alone can know who is or not invincibly as opposed to vincibly ignorant, and that is why He alone is the judge of a man's soul (cf. [u]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/u], no. 1861).

God bless,
Todd [/quote]
Good explanation.