Are Jews going to Hell?

[Melchisedec]

If you do not repent and accept the church and you are a jew than are you going to hell? If so , I ask all of you about the millions of jews murdered by the nazi regime. Did those inocent people die in the gas chambers only to awake in hell? I find it hard to come to grips with the lack of justice in that. Considering if that statement is true, than hitler is burning with the same people he murdered.

[quasimodo]

[quote]Are Jews going to Hell?,[/quote]

some probably will


[quote] Do u go to hell for being jew[/quote]

for that alone? no

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='quasimodo' date='Feb 10 2005, 03:20 PM']
some probably will




for that alone? no [/quote]
What constitutes going to hell?

[Brother Adam]

Welcome to Phatmass. I love the story of Melchizedek in Genesis. This priest-king is the first to offer up bread and wine and is a foreshadow of Christ. In the liturgy of the Catholic Church it is noted that Jesus Christ is a "priest forever in the line of Melchizedek". Note. Genesis 14:18-20 and Hebrews 6:20

Those who die who are not in the grace of God will go to hell. More later.

[cmotherofpirl]

[b]If[/b] you know that the Catholic church is the fullness of truth and walk away, you condemn yourself.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Feb 10 2005, 03:57 PM'] [b]If[/b] you know that the Catholic church is the fullness of truth and walk away, you condemn yourself. [/quote]
Can someone clearly state and specify the criteria required to go to heaven? With that quote, I could claim that as a jew, I am not aware of the truth in Cathlocism based say on my limited exposure to it. So under that line of reasoning, Id be a candidate into heaven?

[Guest Eremite]

There is only one thing necessary to go to Heaven:

Cooperate with the grace God gives you.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Feb 10 2005, 04:06 PM'] There is only one thing necessary to go to Heaven:

Cooperate with the grace God gives you. [/quote]
Can you please expound on what that actually means, its a very vague comment. What grace exactly?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Feb 10 2005, 02:09 PM']Can you please expound on what that actually means, its a very vague comment.  What grace exactly?[/quote]
I posted this in a related thread:

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Feb 7 2005, 06:39 AM'][quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Feb 7 2005, 01:25 AM']Are all the baptized members of the Church, even if they are not in full communion? If the Orthodox Eucharist is the same as the Catholic, what does schism mean?[/quote]
This is a complex theological question, but suffice to say that if a man knows that membership in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of St. Peter, is necessary for salvation and then either fails to enter the Church, or if already in her, if he fails to remain in communion with her, it is impossible for him to be saved.

As the Second Vatican Council taught, "Christ, the one Mediator, established and continually sustains here on earth His holy Church, the community of faith, hope and charity, as an entity with visible delineation through which He communicated truth and grace to all. But, the society structured with hierarchical organs and the Mystical Body of Christ, are not to be considered as two realities, nor are the visible assembly and the spiritual community, nor the earthly Church and the Church enriched with heavenly things; rather they form one complex reality which coalesces from a divine and a human element. For this reason, by no weak analogy, it is compared to the mystery of the incarnate Word. As the assumed nature inseparably united to Him, serves the divine Word as a living organ of salvation, so, in a similar way, does the visible social structure of the Church serve the Spirit of Christ, who vivifies it, in the building up of the body.This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd, and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority, which He erected for all ages as 'the pillar and mainstay of the truth.' [i]This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, [b]subsists[/b] in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him, although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity[/i]." [Vatican 2, [u]Lumen Gentium[/u], no. 8] Thus it is clear that there is one subsistence of the true Church, and it follows that any particular Church or ecclesial community that is not in communion with the Catholic Church is inherently defective, because such particular Churches and communities do not reflect fully that communion which God has given to His Church. The Fathers of the Second Vatican Council, as Cardinal Ratzinger has made clear, used ". . . the word [i]subsistit[/i] (subsists) exactly in order to make clear that one sole subsistence of the true Church exists, whereas outside her visible structure only [i]elementa ecclesiae[/i] (elements of Church) exist; these 'being elements of the same Church' end and conduct toward the Catholic Church (Lumen Gentium, 8)." [CDF [u]Notification to Father Leonardo Boff[/u], issued 12 March 1985]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Feb 7 2005, 01:25 AM']Does no salvation outside the Church mean outside of baptism, or outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church?[/quote]
It is best to think of it this way: [b][i]any man who is saved, is saved by the grace of God which necessarily flows to him from the Catholic Church, even if the man in question is invincibly ignorant of this fact[/i][/b].[/quote]

God bless,
Todd

Taken from the thread: [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=28853&view=findpost&p=515908"]What is the Church?[/url]

[Melchisedec]

Thank you for the concise answer. So if the jews who died under the hands of the Nazis and hitler are going to hell, should we feel any outrage over the event at all? Does anyone at all think its unjust for someone who was murdered in a terrible manner only to awake in eternal torture. 6 million or so jews lost their lives, and they are all burning in hell. Wheres the justice in that. How about gandhi, a peaceful soul is burning in hell. Im sure I could go down the list.

Edited February 10, 2005 by Melchisedec

[track2004]

My friends and I have come up with general answer to the "are <insert group here> going to hell?" question. I would like emphasize it's just some kids who like to talk philosophy, not doctrine or anything near official.

Following the highest truth you are honestly exposed to and that is presented in a way that corresponds to you is the best you can do. Doing the best you can should get you into heaven.

Under this assumption anyone who wasn't exposed to Christianity can't be outright condemned soley because of that. It also covers the people who refused to convert because the missionaries did not present an honest and open view of the church (the convert-or-die mentality). And the faith has to be presented and received in a way that the receipiant 'gets' it. One of my friends is Jewish and though she's been exposed to Christianity it doesn't correspond to her. She is open to the idea that maybe Jesus was the Christ, but in her faith journey God has never expressed that to her. And I have to accept that because she is a good kid and she is trying to find the truth. Again these are all assumptions and guesses, really God can do what He wants.

I don't, for the record, think the Jews who were murdered in the Holocaust went to hell because even though they knew what Christianity was in no way were they given an honest or correct example of it. In fact, as a Christian, I hate the Nazis for disgracing my faith and would not expect anyone who had met any of them to want to be a Christian.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='track2004' date='Feb 10 2005, 04:40 PM'] My friends and I have come up with general answer to the "are <insert group here> going to hell?" question. I would like emphasize it's just some kids who like to talk philosophy, not doctrine or anything near official.

Following the highest truth you are honestly exposed to and that is presented in a way that corresponds to you is the best you can do. Doing the best you can should get you into heaven.

Under this assumption anyone who wasn't exposed to Christianity can't be outright condemned soley because of that. It also covers the people who refused to convert because the missionaries did not present an honest and open view of the church (the convert-or-die mentality). And the faith has to be presented and received in a way that the receipiant 'gets' it. One of my friends is Jewish and though she's been exposed to Christianity it doesn't correspond to her. She is open to the idea that maybe Jesus was the Christ, but in her faith journey God has never expressed that to her. And I have to accept that because she is a good kid and she is trying to find the truth. Again these are all assumptions and guesses, really God can do what He wants.

I don't, for the record, think the Jews who were murdered in the Holocaust went to hell because even though they knew what Christianity was in no way were they given an honest or correct example of it. In fact, as a Christian, I hate the Nazis for disgracing my faith and would not expect anyone who had met any of them to want to be a Christian. [/quote]
Your statement is a direct contradiction to post [b]Apotheoun[/b] made. According to what you said, any faith my enter heaven because it is the highest truth you are exposed to. In your reasoning, an athiest can go to heaven because maybe they were never exposed to an honest and correct form christianity. It sounds more in line with liberal christianity than orthodox beliefs. With this line of reasoning, there is really no reason to be catholic over anything else you have been exposed to.

[Totus Tuus]

It might help you understand Judaism better if you listened to a recent episode of "The Journey Home" on EWTN.com's audio library. They interviewed a convert from Judaism to Christianity, and it was very insightful.

We don't know who is going to hell, and it would be absolutely wrong to say that any GROUP of people is going to hell, because salvation hinges on an individual's accountability- was he ignorant, defiant of the Truth? We can never, and should never, say that we know the state of someone's salvation.

God bless.

Edited February 10, 2005 by Totus Tuus

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' date='Feb 10 2005, 04:55 PM'] It might help you understand Judaism better if you listened to a recent episode of "The Journey Home" on EWTN.com's audio library. They interviewed a convert from Judaism to Christianity, and it was very insightful. [/quote]
If I understand it better, than that means I would feel more comfortable with the idea of the jews of auchwitz burning? Don't see your point here.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Feb 10 2005, 02:25 PM']Thank you for the concise answer.  So if the jews who died under the hands of the Nazis and hitler are going to hell, should we feel any outrage over the event at all?[/quote]
Of those individuals killed in the death camps, God alone knows who has entered into the beatific vision; but anyone who has entered into heaven, has entered because he was in a state of grace, i.e., a state of deifying grace merited by our Lord Jesus Christ. Moreover, the grace received by anyone suffering in those camps, necessarily flowed to him through Christ's Holy Catholic Church, even if he was invincibly ignorant of this fact. Thus, anyone that was murdered in the concentration camps of the Nazis who has gone to heaven, has gone there not because he was murder by Hitler and his henchmen, but because he was in a state of deifying grace.

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Feb 10 2005, 02:25 PM']Does anyone at all think its unjust for someone who was murdered in a terrible manner only to awake in eternal torture. 6 million or so jews lost their lives, and they are all burning in hell. Wheres the justice in that. How about gandhi, a peaceful soul is burning in hell. Im sure I could go down the list.[/quote]
No Catholic is required to believe that all 6 million Jews killed by the Nazis, nor the other 12 million people killed in the concentration camps, are burning in hell. Catholics pray that the merciful God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, gives all of those killed a share in His divine life; and of course for those who died in a state of deifying grace, that gift has been realized. God alone knows who among the millions of people killed by the Nazis is in heaven.

God bless,
Todd