Do Our Differences Really Matter?

[Joolye]

Ok, so we have different beliefs about communion, baptism, tradition, prayer, etc. But does it really matter? We all love Jesus, and we all have a common goal (making disciples), so why don't we all work together to achieve it and stop bickering about our differences? And we can come up family. One big family in Christ Jesus.

How ecumenical are the churches in the US? I know they are pretty good in Australia, they work together and do combined events.

Are our differences that major? Do you think it would be best if all protestants became Catholics? Do you Catholics think that protestants are heretics?

I think that the only churches that we wouldn't want to be associated with in combined events are ones that do not stand on the Word of God, the Bible, and call sin, not sin, such as saying that homosexuality is acceptable and that priests/ministers who are practising homosexuals can be ordained.

I would do combined events with churches that do infant baptisms. I don't have a problem with that, though I believe differently. We can overcome our differences and work together, as we still have the common goal of making disciples.

[Katholikos]

Ok, so we have different beliefs about communion, baptism, tradition, prayer, etc. But does it really matter? We all love Jesus, and we all have a common goal (making disciples), so why don't we all work together to achieve it and stop bickering about our differences? And we can come up family. One big family in Christ Jesus.

Joolye, it matters only if Truth matters. And if the Truth about who Jesus is and what he taught doesn't matter, forget Christianity!

"When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth" Jn 16:12-13

Are 33,820 competing and conflicting denominations all "true"?

What good is it to merely say we "believe in Jesus." Not everyone who says Lord Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven! (Mt 7:21). Did Jesus found a Church so that one whole segment of Christianity could reject it? Does He care that the Sacraments, gifts of His Own Divine Life, are rejected and ridiculed by some who call themselves His followers? A gift rejected is a rejection of the giver! Jesus gave His life for the Church! ("...Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her . . . Eph 5:25)

Christ has a Bride (2 Cor 11:2 et al.), not a harem. The Church is Christ's Body (Col 1:15-18, 1:14, 2:19 et al.), not parts of a body. And not an "invisible body."

Protestant denominations, all claiming to be "led by the Holy Spirit to all truth" give different answers to the following questions (and more!):

What is the Nature of God as revealed by the Scriptures?

Where in the Bible does it say the Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Holy Trinity? Or where does it say the Holy Spirit is even a Person?

The Trinity is not clearly stated in the NT, so why believe it?

Was Jesus God? And did He know it?

Who/what is the Holy Spirit? What does it mean to be "baptized in the Holy Spirit"? Is such a "baptism" necessary and how does it come about?

What did Jesus mean when He declared at the Last Supper "this is my body ...this is my blood..." (cf Mt 26:26-28)?

What is the nature of Jesus' presence in Holy Communion, or is there any Presence? What does communion mean?

How often (if ever) should a Christian celebrate the Last Supper or receive Communion?

In the celebration of the Last Supper, should we use unleavened bread and wine? or crackers and grape juice? or Wonder Bread and water? Or . . .

What happens to a soul after death?

What are the saints in heaven able to do, if anything? What kind of relationship with the saints should a Christian have, if any?

How is one saved? Can one be "unsaved"? If so, does that mean he only thought he was saved when, in fact, he was never saved at all?

Are we "dunghills covered with snow" as Luther taught, meaning that we're only coated with a covering of righteousness after we "get saved"? Or are we filled with the Divine Life of God? Or neither?

Should we be baptized for the dead? (2 Cor 15:29)

Did God "predestine" (pre-determine) who would be saved and who would not?

Are we saved by faith alone? Then what did James mean when he wrote "See how a person is justified by works and NOT by faith alone"?

Paul wrote "stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter"? (2 Thess 2:5 RSV) What did he mean?

Does the Bible allow remarriage after a divorce?

Should women preach and pastor churches?

Will there be a "Rapture"? Of so, will it be pre-millennial or post-millennial? When will it happen?

Are we living in the "end times"?

How are worship services to be structured? Church leadership?

Should babies be baptized? Is baptism required for all? (Jesus said unless one is baptized (i.e., born again), one can't go to heaven. He didn't exclude babies.)

Do I need to be baptized to go to heaven?

What does "born again" mean? Is it required for heaven?

Do I need to confess my sins to a priest?

Is abortion okay? Contraception? Homosexual marriages? Euthanasia?

Is is okay to have a drink? Play cards? Dance? Go to casinos?

What does it mean to "accept Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior"? What do I do? What does He do? Is salvation permanent?

What's the definition of salvation? Of justification?

[adapted from Unabridged Christianity]

Enough, already. But there's plenty more!

Peace be to you and to all,

Katholikos

[Katholikos]

Are our differences that major?

Yes, there are major, MAJOR differences between the doctrines, practices, morality, and theology of Catholics and Protestants. Progress is being made on some issues, however, as in the Lutheran-Catholic Joint Declaration on Justification that was recently announced.

Do you think it would be best if all protestants became Catholics?

What I think doesn't count. Christ founded the Catholic Church for the salvation of the world and endowed it with his saving Sacraments. The Sacraments are the means He ordinarily uses to convey His grace to us -- His Own Divine Life -- to help us get to heaven. He intended for all his followers to belong to His Church.

Jesus didn't leave us a Bible, he left us a Church. The Church, in turn, produced the Bible, with the guidance of the Spirit.

Do you Catholics think that protestants are heretics

"Heretic" means one who chooses. Catholicism contains all of God's revelations made through the Apostles. We cannot choose to accept some of God's revelations, but reject others. We accept all of them or none of them. The willful and persistent rejection of a revealed doctrine by a baptized Catholic is also heresy.

All Protestants (and Muslims, Buddhists, and others) have some of the truth. Only the Catholic Church has all of the truth, and nothing but the truth, the fullness of truth.

I think that the only churches that we wouldn't want to be associated with in combined events are ones that do not stand on the Word of God, the Bible, and call sin, not sin, such as saying that homosexuality is acceptable and that priests/ministers who are practising homosexuals can be ordained.

Such protestants are merely applying the tenants of Sola Scriptura, interpreting the Scripture as they believe the Holy Spirit leads them, and claiming that their interpretation is true. Who is to tell them that they are wrong, since all Protestants reject the authority of the Church that wrote the NT and is its only rightful interpreter? Every Protestant is his own authority, his own Pope.

What some Protestants believe might surprise you -- for example, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists in certain circumstances, and many others, approve of abortion. Lutherans (and others, I suppose) provide abortion services through their insurance programs for church employees. There are pro-lifers among the Protestants, of course, but official policy for some is pro-abortion.

Pray for the unity of Christians in the One True Church of Jesus Christ.

You might want to read John 17, Jesus's prayer for unity.

Peace be to you and to all,

Katholikos

Edited October 26, 2003 by Katholikos

[jasJis]

Joolye,

We are called by God to be of one Faith. It is seeking this Unity of Truth that is the Goal. It is less rejecting the error of our differences. If Christians seek the Unity of Truth as the Christian Goal, the error of differences takes care of itself.

In other words, don't reject a denomination becasue you don't beleive in one of it's tenents. Seek the Truth of God in that denomination. Our souls and hearts also have our strength and mind to help guide it. Grace is given to us directly by God, is given to us by God through others, through the Church, through Scripture. Seek God's grace of Truth and strive to accept all He gives.

It rarely happens in days or seconds. It's a lifetime journey. Even Catholics must admit that it's hard to accept all the Graces that God makes available to us through the Catholic Church.

It's persistently ignoreing God's offered graces that is a big deal. If you reject out of hand a Christian teaching, without considering it. If you persist in this reluctance and don't seek the Truth, then the differences are HUGE! It becomes not a difference between denominations, but may become a willful rejection of God's offered Grace. And that ALWAYS matters!

[IXpenguin21]

if it doesn't matter what denomination you are, why not chose the one that started it all?

Catholicism will always be the origional flava' of Jesus Christ

[ironmonk]

The below verses speak volumes for why it matters.

Acts 20:30

And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.

2 Peter 3:15

And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you,

16 speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.

17 Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability.

All non-Catholic Christian churches are split offs from the Catholic Church, either directly such as Lutheren, or indirectly such as the baptists. They came out of the Catholic Church (from your own group), and they speak lies (men will come forward perverting the truth).

God Bless, Your Servent in Christ,

ironmonk

It matters a lot.

[willguy]

Are our differences big? Yes.

Do they matter? Yes.

Are we all still part of the Body of Christ? Yes.

Jooyle, you seem to be thinking that, just because we believe that one group is fully right, all other groups are fully wrong. We are unified in purpose (preaching Jesus to the nations), and in what I call the "core beliefs" (there is One God, Jesus is the Son of God, is fully God and fully man, died for our sins. You know, the stuff in the Nicene and Apostles' Creeds). However, we also have major differences. Some of these even exist within the core beliefs, such as did Jesus die for all sins or just the sins of those who have been pre-destined? How unified and how separate are the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? etc.

Think of it like a family. Everyone in the family is related and (should) love and stand up for each other. However, this doesn't stop them from fighting amongst each other about what to have for dinner or so-and-so takes too much time in the shower.

[Good Friday]

I have to agree with those who have said that our differences do matter. Even as a liberal, I believed that differences matter, which is why I argued and argued against conservative beliefs. Why? Because I don't believe in subjective truth, nor have I ever. Something is either true or it isn't, and if someone believes something untrue it is our responsibility as Christians to help the Holy Spirit lead them to the Truth.

Now, that doesn't mean that the Church can't work together with the various non-Catholic denominations to achieve certain goals. The Church can, and often does, work with non-Catholic denominations to achieve pro-life goals, to minister to the poor, to stop the influence of secularism, etc. This is a very good thing, because it emphasizes the things we agree upon, and in working together we open up an authentic dialogue on our differences and similarities.

But to ignore our differences would be a false ecumenism, and it would never work. There are simply too many differences for us to pretend they don't matter or don't exist. I think even most non-Catholics would agree that they are not willing to overlook these differences. What we should do is work together on things we do agree on, all the while having an authentic and honest dialogue about our differences and similarities with the goal of bringing all people closer to the Truth.

[Anna]

The ayes have it.

Ay, the differences are huge.

Ay, the differences matter greatly.

But we still love you. God still loves you. We hope and pray for unity. But we're not willing to leave the Church that Christ founded, nor the Sacraments He instituted nor traditions He passed down to us, just for the sake of unity. That would be kinda like saying that our friendship with you is more important to us than our friendship with Him.

Pax Christi. <><

[Good Friday]

And you have to remember that Christ Himself was not willing to compromise on the Truth for the sake of unity:

Then many of the disciples who were listening said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?" Since Jesus knew that His disciples were murmuring about this, He said to them, "Does this shock you? What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray Him. And He said, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father."

As a result of this, many of his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied Him. Jesus then said to the Twelve, "Do you also want to leave?" Simon Peter answered Him, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God." - John 6:60-69

Jesus did not compromise on the truth about the Eucharist. Many were upset and offended over it, and even left over it, but He didn't stop them and say: "It's okay. Our beliefs differ, but we'll all be one big family anyway." He didn't do that. He didn't do that because the Church is not just Jesus' family, it's His Body. If the beliefs of the Church can differ and yet it still be the Church, then the Body of Christ is divided -- Christ Himself is divided. Jesus prayed for unity, not division. True unity comes only when we all unite as the undivided, universal Body of Christ.

As much as you may not want to hear it... that unity, that undivided and universal Body of Christ, does not exist outside the Catholic Church. That's why we won't just forget about our differences. We love you and others like you too much to just say we don't care if you achieve the unity Jesus prayed for, we don't care if you are a cell in the Body of Christ. So we pray for unity, and we debate these points with you -- out of love for you, though we don't always do so well at expressing that love in the way we choose our words. But I can tell you, having been here quite some time, that most of the people here do what they do out of love. They want you to be a part of the One Body of Christ, just as Christ did (and does).

[Anna]

Nathan,

:wub:

[Joolye]

I am familiar with John 17, Katholikos.

Well done for typing a short reply, Ironmonk.

Quoting JasJis:

It is seeking this Unity of Truth that is the Goal...If Christians seek the Unity of Truth as the Christian Goal...

Well, we've got a problem there already! I said that our goal is making disciples!! Perhaps we have more than one goal?!

Nobody really answered my question about how ecumenical churches are in America (although Good Friday touched on it).

Edited October 27, 2003 by Joolye

[jasJis]

I am familiar with John 17, Katholikos.

Well done for typing a short reply, Ironmonk.

Quoting JasJis:

Well, we've got a problem there already! I said that our goal is making disciples!! Perhaps we have more than one goal?!

Nobody really answered my question about how ecumenical churches are in America (although Good Friday touched on it).

We have many minor goals. Our ultimate Goal is heaven, to be in the presence of God's eternal love.

Churches in the US are very ecumenical, up to allowing error to creep into their Doctrine. For example. One of the local Christian radio stations is Catholic. We broadcast the Rosary, Mass, messages from the Bishop, Catholic apologetics with Catholic experts for call-in shows, and Christian music. It is supported mostly by donations. Almost half of the money is given by non-Catholic Christians.

I also belong to a large parish. We run a Food Pantry wharehouse. We solicit the food, store it, and distribute it to other ministries that give to the poor. More than 90% of the ministries we give the food to are non-Catholic. We are the sole supplier of free food to most of these ministries.

Ecumenical relationships start with the fundamental truths of Corporal Works of Mercy that help with Spiritual Works of Mercy. Ecumenism that forces change of fundamental doctrine on a lay or small church level is not a reality. For example, the Catholic Church is not going to participate in a non-Catholic church rally supporting 'the right to choose abortion', even if we supply the food to their minstry feeding the poor.

[Katholikos]

I am familiar with John 17, Katholikos.

Well done for typing a short reply, Ironmonk.

Quoting JasJis:

Well, we've got a problem there already! I said that our goal is making disciples!! Perhaps we have more than one goal?!

Nobody really answered my question about how ecumenical churches are in America (although Good Friday touched on it).

About John 17 -- Jesus didn't pray that there would be many (33,820), but ONE.

And He gave His reason: So that the world might believe!

In mission lands, it's ludicrous for one disciple to be teaching as absolute "truth" the doctrines of the Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists, while another preaches the "truth" of Cumberland Presbyterianism, and yet another the "truth" of Seventh-Day Adventism -- all based on the same Bible. Believe this -- no, that! Baptize this way -- no, that way! Many look at the man-made conflicting beliefs in Christianity and turn away. I certainly did.

The point of making disciples is so that they can teach others. What shall they teach? A man-made brand of Christianity or the God-made original?

What did the first Christians believe? "He raised a banner for all times for His saints and faithful followers, whether among Jews or the Gentiles, that they might be united in a single body, that is, His Church. Ignatius of Antioch, to the Smyrnaens, 107 A.D.

Ave Cor Mariae, Katholikos

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Excellent posts Katholikos.

Couldnt of said it better maself

God Bless,

CatholicAndFanatical