Question about fasting

[Carnanc]

So on my one meal today for Ash Wednesday, my mom told me to have some soup. However, after I was done with it and looked at the ingredients it said "chicken stock", I don't know, but I'd say that likely counts as eating meat. I'd guess this is probably serious sin, but because It was accidental, do I need to confess this, can I recieve Communion at Mass tonight?.....

Edited February 10, 2005 by slywakka250

[Thy Geekdom Come]

If it was accidental, no, you don't need to Confess it. I'm not sure if you can receive tonight or not, though.

[HomeTeamFamily]

i was told that stock does not count as meat

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='VoloHumilisEsse' date='Feb 9 2005, 08:41 PM'] i was told that stock does not count as meat [/quote]
It does. That given, since it was accidental and unknown to Slywakka at the time he ate it it wouldn't be a mortal sin.

[quote]Abstinence  The law of abstinence requires a Catholic 14 years of age until death to abstain from eating meat on Fridays in honor of the Passion of Jesus on Good Friday. Meat is considered to be the flesh and organs of mammals and fowl. [b]Also forbidden are soups or gravies made from them.[/b] Salt and freshwater species of fish, amphibians, reptiles and shellfish are permitted, as are animal derived products such as margarine and gelatin which do not have any meat taste.[/quote]

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/faith/lent/fast.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/faith/lent/fast.htm[/url]

[musturde]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' date='Feb 9 2005, 08:11 PM'] It does. That given, since it was accidental and unknown to Slywakka at the time he ate it it wouldn't be a mortal sin.



[url="http://www.ewtn.com/faith/lent/fast.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/faith/lent/fast.htm[/url] [/quote]
No, my theology teacher gave me a paper written by a priest and some dude with a PHD in theo that said that you can even put lil pieces of bacon on ur salad and that wouldnt be counted as eating meat. You can cook gravies and stews from them also. That's just what she gave us, i guess there are diff views?

[IcePrincessKRS]

How is eating meat and things made with meat not counted as eating meat?

[IcePrincessKRS]

Ok, so I talked to my mom... you all know her as Anna, the generally benevolent matriarch of phatmass.

In reference to eating meat broths, gravies, and bacon bits on your salad she had the following words of wisdom to offer (pardon the odd formatting, its copied from an IM conversation, I edited my comments because it was mainly just "yeah" or "lol"):

So much for SACRIFICING!!!
My gosh, tell them to go watch the Passion of the Christ, then ssee if they don't want to forego the bacon bits!
It's not too much for the Church to ask, that we abstain from such a small thing.
Good grief, can'tthey deny their tastebuds for a single freakin' day of the week?????
And you can tell them that that's the theology of ANNA!!!
Not a sin if you forgot or didn't know...but to deliberately chose options containing meat is really, really pressing the envelope.
BACON is MEAT for goodness sakes.
I don't care if it's imitation bacon bits.
It's the intent!
The intent is, I'm gonna claim I'm abstaining, but I'm not gonna totally abstain.
Or, in Christ's words to Satan when tempted with some bits of bread, "Do not put the Lord to the test!"
Wayyyyyyyyyyyy too many folks walking around with degrees in theology these days who are making up their own doctrines!
A little common sense, for heaven's sake!

Edited February 10, 2005 by IcePrincessKRS

[MichaelFilo]

Any meat, consumed by mistake, should be confessed, but you are not under any penalty for consuming it. I didn't realize it is a mortal sin to eat meat, I just always understood it as a practic eof piety in accordance with the Lenten tradition. Then again, I come for the Syriac and Chaldean rite, we don't even celebrate Ash Wednesday, and our fasting started last Sunday. This year I'm following in the Roman tradition though. If any can clarify if it is indeed a mortal sin, I'd appreciate it (I didn't realize a discpline imposed by the Church, if broken, is a mortal sin. I don't know of any other case in which it applies).

God bless,
Mikey

[musturde]

well this wasnt written by some random people, it was written by 2 people with Doctors degrees in Theology. They were explaining it according to the Church's view. (at least that's what they claim.) I believe either belief is optional because I noticed there were different views about it. I'd probably agree more with u on this one but I'm saying this for the sake of the people who all got this paper as well haha.

[musturde]

wait, does milk count?

[Carnanc]

[quote]Abstinence  The law of abstinence requires a Catholic 14 years of age until death to abstain from eating meat on Fridays in honor of the Passion of Jesus on Good Friday. Meat is considered to be the flesh and organs of mammals and fowl. Also forbidden are soups or gravies made from them. Salt and freshwater species of fish, amphibians, reptiles and shellfish are permitted, as are animal derived products such as margarine and gelatin which do not have any meat taste.[/quote]

I don't think so, milk doesn't have meat taste

[musturde]

thnx

[Carnanc]

this site looks like what mustrude was talking about

[url="http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/Lent/faqle9902.asp"]http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/Lent/faqle9902.asp[/url]

In 1966 Pope Paul VI reorganized the Church's practice of public penance in his "Apostolic Constitution on Penance" (Poenitemini). The 1983 revision of the Code of Canon Law incorporated the changes made by Pope Paul. Not long after that, the U.S. bishops applied the canonical requirements to the practice of public penance in our country.

To sum up those requirements, Catholics between the ages of 18 and 59 are obliged to fast on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday. In addition, all Catholics 14 years old and older must abstain from meat on Ash Wednesday, Good Friday and all the Fridays of Lent.

Fasting as explained by the U.S. bishops means partaking of only one full meal. Some food (not equaling another full meal) is permitted at breakfast and around midday or in the evening—depending on when a person chooses to eat the main or full meal.

Abstinence forbids the use of meat, but not of eggs, milk products or condiments made of animal fat.

According to Father John Huels in The Pastoral Companion (Franciscan Herald Press), abstinence does not include meat juices and liquid foods made from meat. Thus, such foods as chicken broth, consomme, soups cooked or flavored with meat, meat gravies or sauces, as well as seasonings or condiments made from animal fat are not forbidden. So it is permissible to use margarine and lard.

Huels states that even bacon drippings which contain little bits of meat may be poured over lettuce as seasoning. And Huels notes that no one considers gelatin or Jell-O to be meat.

Huels gives a norm long used by moral theologians: If in doubt whether a particular food is considered meat, look to the common estimation of persons in the area. Custom is the best interpreter of the law.

Each year in publishing the Lenten penance requirements, the U.S. bishops quote the teaching of the Holy Father concerning the seriousness of observing these days of penance. The obligation to do penance is a serious one; the obligation to observe, as a whole or "substantially," the days of penance is also serious.

But no one should be scrupulous in this regard; failure to observe individual days of penance is not considered serious. Moral theologians remind us that some people are excused from fasting and/or abstinence because of sickness or other reasons.

In his "Apostolic Constitution on Penance," Pope Paul VI did more than simply reorganize Church law concerning fast and abstinence. He reminded us of the divine law that each of us in our own way do penance. We must all turn from sin and make reparation to God for our sins. We must forgive and show love for one another just as we ask for God's love and forgiveness.

The Code of Canon Law and our bishops remind us of other works and means of doing penance: prayer, acts of self-denial, almsgiving and works of personal charity. Attending Mass daily or several times a week, praying the rosary, making the way of the cross, attending the parish evening prayer service, teaching the illiterate to read, reading to the blind, helping at a soup kitchen, visiting the sick and shut-ins and giving an overworked mother a break by baby-sitting—all of these can be even more meaningful and demanding than simply abstaining from meat on Friday.

[Socrates]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Feb 9 2005, 09:01 PM'] Any meat, consumed by mistake, should be confessed, but you are not under any penalty for consuming it. I didn't realize it is a mortal sin to eat meat, I just always understood it as a practic eof piety in accordance with the Lenten tradition. Then again, I come for the Syriac and Chaldean rite, we don't even celebrate Ash Wednesday, and our fasting started last Sunday. This year I'm following in the Roman tradition though. If any can clarify if it is indeed a mortal sin, I'd appreciate it (I didn't realize a discpline imposed by the Church, if broken, is a mortal sin. I don't know of any other case in which it applies).

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
Since the person was unaware at the time that he was consuming a meat product, there was no sin whatsoever, mortal, or venial, and no need to confess it.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='slywakka250' date='Feb 9 2005, 10:56 PM'] Abstinence forbids the use of meat, but not of eggs, milk products or condiments made of animal fat.

According to Father John Huels in The Pastoral Companion (Franciscan Herald Press), abstinence does not include meat juices and liquid foods made from meat. Thus, such foods as chicken broth, consomme, soups cooked or flavored with meat, meat gravies or sauces, as well as seasonings or condiments made from animal fat are not forbidden. So it is permissible to use margarine and lard.

Huels states that even bacon drippings which contain little bits of meat may be poured over lettuce as seasoning. And Huels notes that no one considers gelatin or Jell-O to be meat.
[/quote]
Ok, this is what I don't get. In one breath they say "Abstianence forbids the use of meat" and in the next they say "its ok to cook and flavor your food with meat." Sounds pretty contradictory if you ask me. Abstaining from meat means NO meat. Even people with degrees in Theology can be wrong. I'd rather abstain from it all than say "Well Father so and so says its ok." Yeah, I posted my mom's opinion but I've found far more sources in agreement with her than not.

If you (musturde) had read the entire article I linked to or even the whole section of the quote I gave it did note that gelatin, margarine, etc.. are ok to eat.

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01067a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01067a.htm[/url]

[quote]THE LATIN CHURCH: SUBJECTS UNDER, AND MATERIAL ELEMENT OF, THE LAW

Throughout the Latin Church the law of abstinence prohibits all responsible subjects from indulging in meat diet on duly appointed days. [b]Meat diet comprises the flesh, blood, or marrow of such animals and birds as constitute flesh meat according to the appreciation of intelligent and law-abiding Christians.[/b] For this reason the use of fish, vegetables, mollusks, crabs, turtles, frogs, and such-like cold-blooded creatures is not at variance with the law of abstinence. Amphibians are relegated to the category whereunto they bear most striking resemblance. This classification can scarcely preclude all doubt regarding viands prohibited by the law of abstinence. Local usage, together with the practice of intelligent and conscientious Christians, generally holds a key for the solution of mooted points in such matters, otherwise the decision rests with ecclesiastical authority. [b]Furthermore, on many fasting days during the year the law of abstinence bars the use of such viands as bear some identity of origin with flesh meat.[/b] For this reason eggs, milk, butter, coagulated milk, and lard are interdicted (St. Thomas, Summa, II-II, Q. cvii, art. ult., ad 3). The Church enjoins the ways and means whereby her subjects must satisfy the obligation of doing penance inculcated by natural law. Many of the Fathers allude to the exercise of ecclesiastical authority in reference to the obligation of abstinence. The disciplinary canons of various councils bear witness to the actual exercise of authority in the same direction. Texts of theology and catechisms of Christian doctrine indicate that the obligation of abstaining forms an element in one of the Commandments of the Church. Satisfaction for sin is an item of primary import in the moral order. Naturally enough, abstinence contributes no small share towards the realization of this end. As a consequence, [b]the law of abstinence embodies a serious obligation whose transgression, objectively considered, ordinarily involves a mortal sin.[/b] The unanimous verdict of theologians, the constant practice of the faithful, and the mind of the Church place this point beyond cavil. They who would fain minimize the character of this obligation so as to relegate all transgressions, save such as originate in contempt, to the category of venial sin are anathematized by Alexander VII [Cf. Prop. 23, ap. Bucceroni, Enchiridion Morale, 145 (Rome, 1905)]. In fine, the Trullan synod (can. 58, ap. Hefele, "History of the Councils of the Church", V, 231, Edinburgh, 1896) inflicts deposition on clerics and excommunication on laymen who violate this law. Furthermore, theologians claim that a grievous sin is committed as often as flesh meat is consumed in any quantity on abstinence days (Sporer, Theologia Moralis super Decalogum, I, De observ. jejunii, # 2, assert. II), because the law is negative, and binds semper et pro semper. In other words, the prohibition of the Church in this matter is absolute. At times, however, the quantity of prohibited material may be so small that the law suffers no substantial violation. From an objective standpoint such transgressions carry the guilt of venial sin. Moralists are by no means unanimous in deciding where the material element of such minor disorders passes into a material disorder of major importance. Some think that an ounce of flesh meat suffices to constitute a serious breach of this law, whereas others claim that nothing short of two ounces involves infringement of this obligation. Ordinarily, the actual observance of the law is confined to such circumstances as carry no insupportable burden. This is why the sick, the infirm, mendicants, labourers, and such as find difficulty in procuring fish diet are not bound to observe the law as long as such conditions prevail. [/quote]

Edited February 10, 2005 by IcePrincessKRS