Questions about the Catholic church

[Qwertyuiop]

[quote]Do you have questions about the Catholic church? Do you want to discuss and/or debate issues with Catholics? Do you just want to know more about the Catholic faith? Go to [url="http://www.phatmass.com"]http://www.phatmass.com[/url] and click on "phorum". There are plenty of friendly Catholics ready to answer your questions and/or be challenged by your arguments against the church. Remember, we keep it civil--rudeness is not allowed![/quote]


Well, here I am now, entertain me.


Okay, kidding aside, I actually do have some questions I wanted to ask you.

1. Is your view that salvation comes only through catholism? Meaning that all the other christians are going to Hell. In that case, what is the meaningful difference between different christian factions? Often you hear that salvation comes "through faith in Jesus Christ as the savior", but that is common to every christian faction (by definition). Perhaps what I'm asking is this: why catholism?

2. What is the Bible for you?


Just curious.

Peace and unity.

Q.

[Qwertyuiop]

To continue from the first question...

Would it be correct to say that you don't view christianity as being a religion, but a word to describe whole buch of religions with a similar theme?

I'm trying to understand the us-them arrangement that seems to be at work here. When thinking about the world's religions, do you mainly see there being "us, the catholics, and all the other religions" or "us, the christians, and all the other religions"?


Oh, and about all I know about, how catholism differs from all the other christian religions, is that you have the Pope with that nice hat and that you go to confess once in a while. With this it's hard to see the us-them thing.


Q.

[mamalove]

Let me be the first to welcome you to phatmass! :wave:

Sit back, relax, because there is a ton of information about to come your way. Though it is really pretty simple to those who have grown up Catholic or who have studied it, the Catholic faith is quite complex.

There are many differences between Catholics and Protestants, but you would be surpised by how many similarities there are too. The Catholic Church is the church that Christ himself began. We are the One, True Church.

The biggest thing that sets us apart from Protestants is the fact that we have the Real Presence. Meaning, our most treasured belief is that Christ is truely, physically present in the Eucharist (the communion host).

No, we don't believe that all other christians are going to hell.

The bible to us is the same as it is to other christians, but sadly, Catholics are notrious for not being well versed in it. But, it isn't the sole form of Christ's teachings. Catholics believe that the teachings of Christ come through scripture and tradition. Some things were written down for us, and the rest was passed down to us.

In a nutshell, the Catholic Faith is the complete form of Christianity.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Qwertyuiop' date='Feb 8 2005, 05:50 AM']

Well, here I am now, entertain me.


Okay, kidding aside, I actually do have some questions I wanted to ask you.

1. Is your view that salvation comes only through catholism? Meaning that all the other christians are going to Hell. In that case, what is the meaningful difference between different christian factions? Often you hear that salvation comes "through faith in Jesus Christ as the savior", but that is common to every christian faction (by definition). Perhaps what I'm asking is this: why catholism?

2. What is the Bible for you?


Just curious.

Peace and unity.

Q. [/quote]
1. No it is not our view that all non-Catholics go to hell.

2. The Bible is the inerrant, infallible Word of God. The Bible is a canon of 73 sacred books which is God's revelation to man.


As a non-Catholic, how do you explain the extra-biblical formation of the Bible? Do you believe that the list of canonical books is infallible?




Welcome to phatmass!

~Bro. Adam, Catholic Convert.

[thessalonian]

1. Is your view that salvation comes only through catholism? Meaning that all the other christians are going to Hell. In that case, what is the meaningful difference between different christian factions? Often you hear that salvation comes "through faith in Jesus Christ as the savior", but that is common to every christian faction (by definition). Perhaps what I'm asking is this: why catholism?


Are all non Catholics going to hell? Well, I think the good samaritan who was of a relgion that was a mix of Judaism and paganism likely made heavens gates. The three wise men were neither Christian or Jew and they saw God. Cornelius was said to be a rigtheous and God fearing man BEFORE he knew Christ. Romans 2:15 says that the law is written on all men's hearts such that none is without excuse. And yet it says that some of the gentiles actually do what the law requires. So I make no judgements on anyone's salvation. It is a Catholic axiom of the faith that each man is responsible for the light he has been given by God. Luke 12 says "to the one who knew he will be treated as the unbeliver, but TO THE ONE WHO DID NOT KNOW, he will recieve but few lashes". Thus what one is ignorant of he is not culpable for. There is actually a higher level of responsibility for us Catholics. James 3:1 indicates that the one with the greater understanding of the truth will be judged accoringly. But in Titus Paul also indicates that there will be greater reward for these. You will be given light on this board. What you do with it is your responsibility.

Why Catholicism. First because relativism cannot be true. Christianity is not a bunch of equal religions. Indifferentism is little better than realtivism. Some have more truth than others and none comes close to Catholicism which is the fullness of the truth.

2. What is the Bible for you?

It is the word of God. But the Word of God is not equal to the Bible. I.e. one must have the proper understandings that go with the scriptures to have the Word of God. The example I use is there is a verse in Corinthians that talks about baptism of the dead. Not even in a negative way. Now the Mormons say, well then we should be doing proxy baptisms and baptizing our dead relatives who were not baptized. Do they have the word of God in having this false understanding? They have the scriptures so they must right? Wrong. They have to have proper understanding as well. Paul says "hold fast to the traditionSSSSS (scripture is a tradition) you have recieved, whether BY WORD OF MOUTH, or in writing from us. 2 Thes 2:15. So there is an oral component and a written component of God's word. The Bible never says that it stands alone as God's word.

Others have answered well.

God bless in your journey and welcome.

[Qwertyuiop]

Thanks for the replies, everyone.


[quote name='mamalove']The biggest thing that sets us apart from Protestants is the fact that we have the Real Presence. Meaning, our most treasured belief is that Christ is truely, physically present in the Eucharist (the communion host).
[/quote]

That sounds familiar. I've read about these things, I guess. But I still quite don't see why would that make such a big difference. You say that is the biggest, yet it hardly seems enough to deem someone to Hell.


[quote name='Brother Adam']
No it is not our view that all non-Catholics go to hell.
[/quote]

What.. but.. why would it matter then? Whether one is a catholic or not, I mean. If someone is not going to Hell, she's going to Heaven. And if she's going to Heaven, then she's doing God's Will, right? I'm confused, this all seems contradictory.

If salvation is not about being a catholic, then what determines who gets saved and who doesn't?

[quote name='thessalonian']
Well, I think the good samaritan who was of a relgion that was a mix of Judaism and paganism likely made heavens gates.
[/quote]

The good samaritan did a good deed, because he was a good person. Do all good persons go to Heaven regardless of their religious beliefs?


[quote name='Brother Adam']
As a non-Catholic, how do you explain the extra-biblical formation of the Bible?
[/quote]

I'm sorry, I don't quite know what you mean by this. Why does this need explaining? I mean, it's not like the Bible could have formed itself. Someone made it.

[quote name='Brother Adam']
Do you believe that the list of canonical books is infallible?
[/quote]

I think that literal translation of the Bible (creationism) is just plain silly. Laws made 2000 years ago probably lowered (for example) levels of violence back then, but in todays societies they would likely only increase it. Similarly, when you explain things to children, you explain them in the manner they could grasp the idea of them. Not necessary in the way that things precisely are. I like to think we've grown up a bit in the last 2000 years.

[quote name='Brother Adam']
The Bible is the inerrant, infallible Word of God. The Bible is a canon of 73 sacred books which is God's revelation to man.
[/quote]

But you reject creationism, right? I mean, you don't interpret the Bible literally? Again, I see this as contradictory.

[quote name='thessalonian']
First because relativism cannot be true. Christianity is not a bunch of equal religions. Indifferentism is little better than realtivism.
[/quote]

You often hear that "every religion is the same religion", but I don't think that. I think it's a very naive way to look at it.


[quote name='mamalove']
the Catholic faith is quite complex.
[/quote]

Perhaps I'm drawn to simplicity then, because I find this confusing.

It all seems so clear to you, so I'm trying to understand your point of view.


Q.

[jasJis]

Qwertyuiop,
God bless you. Your name is EASY to type!

Just a quick and simple explanation. Catholics beleive that we are the Original and Complete Christian faith. We beleive we are Saved by Grace ALONE. We beleive we are judged solely by how each of us respond to whatever Grace God chooses to bestow on each of us. In a perfect world, everyone would be Catholic because we all would be saying Yes to God's Grace. Catholic just means Universal. The Good Samaritan was responding YES to Grace when in his heart he was moved by grace to recognize someone in need. The Samaritan was not Graced to be born and brought up Jewish in which case he would have been Graced to have parents, family, and friends and a culture where he would have been exposed to more opportunities to learn and know about God. But though the Samaratin was limited in the Grace given to him, he responded 100%. It's just like the story of the Master who gives some of his servants different amounts of Talent and how only the one who did nothing with it got in trouble.

People who respond Yes to Grace are in a 'state of grace' and would go to heaven. Everything that is Good is from God. By the same token, those who respond NO to Grace are saying No to God. The Jews who walked by the hurt guy were given plenty of grace opportunities to have known better, but they said NO to Grace and thus were not seen behaving in a good way. God alone judges the persons heart. We can easily guess that God was displeased with those who walked by, but we don't know if God would condemn them.

Catholicism is Full Christianity. It's as simple or as complicated as it needs to be for you and your relationship with God and Jesus. The REAL Presence is all about God coming to be with you and I in a physical representation of His Son, Our Lord, Jesus Christ so of course it's very important to Catholics because the Real Presence is the ultimate Gift of Grace to us because we need Jesus and Jesus wants to physically give Grace to us. It's the whole point of God becoming Man and sacrificing Himself for us. To reject the Real Presence is to reject God and His Self Sacrifice on the Cross for us. It would sorta be like a Pentecostal refusing to accept the Holy Spirit.

[Qwertyuiop]

[quote name='jasJis']
Your name is EASY to type!
[/quote]

It's not very pretty name, though! I had trouble registering, got frustrated and ended up with that name.


[quote name='jasJis']
People who respond Yes to Grace are in a 'state of grace' and would go to heaven. Everything that is Good is from God. By the same token, those who respond NO to Grace are saying No to God.
[/quote]

Hm. But you see, I don't understand how you are supposed to be able to tell whether you are saying yes or no.


[quote name='Qwertyuiop']
Laws made 2000 years ago
[/quote]

Quoting myself here. I was referring to the OT so parts that paragraph doesn't make sense. I didn't seem to be able to edit my last post.


Q.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Out of curiosity, which forum are you from?

[jasJis]

[quote name='Qwertyuiop' date='Feb 9 2005, 10:00 AM'] Hm. But you see, I don't understand how you are supposed to be able to tell whether you are saying yes or no. [/quote]
What do you mean? If you are trying to say Yes, and praying, and being open to the Holy Spirit, you are probably saying Yes. God knows your heart. God is very merciful. God sacrificed His Son to atone for your shortcomings. God is patient. God is merciful. He helps us by moving our hearts, by establishing a visible Church as a source of Grace, by gracing others to help us, by giving us Scripture as a source of Grace, by giving us Grace in Sacraments. That's whay Paul means about working out our salvation with fear and trembling. We should never take salvation for granted, but we should never doubt that Grace will be made available. Faith is by Grace. Works is by Grace. Works in Faith are us responding to Grace and it develops our Faith and we mature in Faith and can recognize and respond to Grace more readily.

It's a journey and a process where our efforts are judged by a merciful and loving God. God gives us grace to just TRY, and He will grace us further to reach the Destination (His arms).

[Theoketos]

God is Love!

We are only saved by His Grace!

[cathqat]

[quote name='Qwertyuiop' date='Feb 8 2005, 04:50 AM'] 2. What is the Bible for you?
[/quote]
I think the best answer to this question is to give you a link to [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/V2REVEL.HTM"][i]Dei Verbum[/i], the Vatican II Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation[/url].

It's not very long, it's pretty simple to understand, and it's the official word on what Catholics believe about scripture.

[rufiokicks]

[quote name='Qwertyuiop' date='Feb 8 2005, 04:50 AM']
1. Is your view that salvation comes only through catholism? Meaning that all the other christians are going to Hell. In that case, what is the meaningful difference between different christian factions? Often you hear that salvation comes "through faith in Jesus Christ as the savior", but that is common to every christian faction (by definition). Perhaps what I'm asking is this: why catholism?[/quote]

The question of salvation is a big one. As humans, we are not in the place to judge and condemn people. Catholics don't believe that other religions are going to Hell. Not because we think everyone is right, but because we don't know who will ever get to Heaven. That decision is up to God, not Man. The best we can do is live a righteous life. Judging people is a sin that should be avoided. Judge not lest though be judged. Or something like this. I'll finish later, I have class. Remind me to talk about Protestantism and the Bible, someone mentioned that.

[Qwertyuiop]

[quote name='Raphael']
Out of curiosity, which forum are you from?
[/quote]


I found the post while lurking around somewhere at Atheist network and decided this might be a good place to find out more about catholism (since I've been looking into lots of religions lately).

I'm pretty agnostic myself. Sometimes you jsut have that "what if you really end up in Hell" kind of thought, which is why I'm here now, I suppose.

[quote name='jasJis']
What do you mean? If you are trying to say Yes, and praying, and being open to the Holy Spirit, you are probably saying Yes.
[/quote]

I only remember praying once and I was something like 10 years old at that time. Nothing happened. I've never felt any Holy Spirits either. So how would I know what to say yes to.

I don't think this is really going anywhere. Thanks for your time, but my beef is with faith rather than catholism.


Q.

[Qwertyuiop]

[quote name='Qwertyuiop']
my beef is with faith rather than catholism.
[/quote]

No, you know what, correct that. I read some threads here about "SSA", as you call it, and if that's defined as sinning, then yeah, I have a beef with catholism.


Q.