How Do You "have" Faith?

[mulls]

I extend to you, in a special way, Mulls, yet another invitation to return to the Church, to attend Mass now that it's meaning and the historical richness of the Faith has been presented to you

the last time i attended a mass was at my grandfather's funeral about 6 months ago. i came away feeling very bitter and angry, especially when the priest (who is a close friend of the family) told the congregation that my grandpa "served God in his own way. From what I could tell, my grandfather was an atheist, and wasn't even a baptized Catholic (episcopal, I think). And the priest went on to say that we will all spend eternity with him one day. ugghhh. It gave all the heathens there a falsely comforting sense of security, and made me very upset.

Edited July 15, 2003 by mulls

[Anna]

Is that a rhetorical question?

[Katholikos]

the last time i attended a mass was at my grandfather's funeral about 6 months ago. i came away feeling very bitter and angry, especially when the priest (who is a close friend of the family) told the congregation that my grandpa "served God in his own way. From what I could tell, my grandfather was an atheist, and wasn't even a baptized Catholic (episcopal, I think). And the priest went on to say that we will all spend eternity with him one day. ugghhh. It gave all the heathens there a falsely comforting sense of security, and made me very upset.

Mulls, it would be highly unusual to have a funeral Mass for a person who was not Catholic. In fact, it's not permitted. A priest may officiate at other funeral services for a non-Catholic, but never at a Mass. Are you sure this was a funeral Mass you attended? Do you a know a Mass when you've been to one, or do you think that if a priest is present and presiding at a service, it must be a Mass?

A memorial Mass may be offered for a deceased non-Catholic, but that's not the same thing as a funeral Mass. Or, if a prayer service is held in a funeral home, a priest may preside.

Protestants expect ministers to announce that good ole Charlie is in heaven, if Charlie was a Christian, and that poor ole Bill is in hell, if he was not. Priests, representing the Church, do not make those judgments. No one knows the state of the soul of any person at any time, least of all at death.

Could this possibly have been an Episcopal "priest"? They dress like Catholic priests. And go through the motions of a copy-cat Mass.

I've been at many funerals where the preacher announced "it's too late for (fill in the name of the deceased), but it's not too late for you," and an "altar call" was held right then and there. Amazing. And it's such a comfort to the family to hear that "it's too late" for their loved one, meaning that he/she is in hell. Only God knows that (and Protestant ministers ).

We will all spend eternity with your grandfather someday. It doesn't sound as if the priest made any judgment about whether your grandfather was in heaven or hell, but he certainly is in eternity, as we all will be.

You've picked up some bad language and judgmental attitudes from the Assembly Of God. I hope you repent of calling people heathens before it's too late.

JMJ Jay (Likos)

Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

[Jake Huether]

We have faith that the sun will rise in the morning. That when you open your mouth to speak, words will come out. We have faith that when we flip the light switch the light will go on, or if we turn the foset on water will come out. We have faith in a lot of things.

Are those not the same faith that we have in Christ. Do we not have the same faith that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. There is not proof that tomorow the sun will shine, or that if you flip the switch electricity will flow and the light will turn on. If you ask me, there is more evidence that Christ is God than there is that when I wake up the sun won't be there.

God gave this guy faith, otherwise he might not think that when he takes a step he'd move forward. He just hasn't realized that he can apply that faith to Jesus.

[Anna]

Mulls,

This is one reason why interreligious dialogue is sometimes so difficult.

I find that some of the more fundamentalist sects seem to listen with an ear for error. I mean by that, that they seem to converse only to pick some word, phrase, comment, or remark and declare it faulty, pagan, heresy, sinful, or heathen.

Sometimes, they're just plain wrong. Sometimes things are taken out of context. Sometimes the person did misspeak, but didn't mean it to sound that way...

I remember one time on PhatMass when Jake said that if only one human being made it into heaven, the person would be there with Jesus and Mary. Brother Adam cited the error and called him on it, and all hell almost broke loose! Jake wasn't saying that Mary is divine, but he did miscount the theoretical number of humans in heaven, if there was Mary, plus one more! But from the fundamentalist viewpoint, Jake could've been an idolater for that remark, when he really only misspoke.

Humans do err, but the Church which Christ founded does not.

Jesus instituted the Mass and the Sacraments for us. He founded the Catholic Church, and the priesthood. The apostles, the first priests, weren't perfect. Even the first pope, St. Peter, put his foot in his mouth a couple times. Priests occasionally misspeak also. But the Church which Christ founded still stands as He promised, and her doctrines are founded on the Truths He taught the Apostles. He prayed that we would all "be one," and by leaving the sheepfold for another denomination, you are entering into deeper error than had you remained a Catholic.

I admire your fervor, but it is displaced in the Assemblies of God denomination. Their doctrines are founded on errors. It's not the One True Church founded by Christ. It doesn't even offer the Sacraments which Christ instituted.

I know that there are many people there with sincere hearts, but they are sincerely in error.

[mulls]

Likos,

once again you've managed to insult my intelligence.

yes, I can tell what is a Mass and what isn't. this was a Mass. maybe my grandfather was baptized a Catholic, i'm not sure, but this was definately a Mass. and the Catholic priest is a friend of the family, i've known him from childhood, and the Mass was held at the Catholic church in which i was raised.

yes, the priest did in fact say that my grandfather served God "in his own way," simply by being a good father, and was now in heaven. he comforted much of my family with these words, before, during, and after Mass.

And it's such a comfort to the family to hear that "it's too late" for their loved one, meaning that he/she is in hell. Only God knows that (and Protestant ministers  ).

cute joke.

would you rather have a loved one be comforted while grieving, but still bound by sin and away from God... or would you rather have them hear the truth of the Gospel that God wishes them to hear? It's unfortunate that a pastor would actually declare that the deceased is in hell (i doubt this would happen, from a common sense standpoint, but i will take your word that it actually did). but doesn't the family deserve to hear about Jesus? Isn't today the day of salvation?

Anna and Likos,

As for my language, maybe i'm judgemental. i judge people (not in the sense of how God judges, maybe 'view' is a better word?) by their actions...i cannot read their hearts. if i witness them living a sinful lifestyle, its rings a bell in my head that they don't exactly have a great relationship with the Lord, and that they could use some help in this area. Either you are living in Christ for Christ everyday of your life (or are making a sincere attempt too, but having difficulties), or are not. Most of the people I know are not. Yet they were comforted by the priest's words that my grandfather is in heaven. And being that my grandfather was a lovable 'average-joe' type guy, these people probably see no difference between my grandfather and themselves...ultimately meaning that they may be deceived into thinking that they are going right to heaven when they die. This is what breaks my heart.

Finally, i have to reiterate, once again, that the Assemblies of God does not run my life. i choose to go to an Assemblies of God church. i am not a strict AG person. A denomination's guidelines do not influence me. The Word of God does, and the Holy Spirit does.

Anna, I find your remark about fundamentalist sects listening for error, and applying it to me, to be hurtful. i believe you are trying to imply that I was waiting for the priest to somehow contradict himself so I could call him on it. not true. However, I am always careful when listening to people talk about things of the Lord. "Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings." Hebrews 13:9.

We are warned to be careful not to be deceived. I also hold this true for when my pastor preaches. if he says something that seems to be out of tune, it is my responsibility to follow up on it. Its just being careful.

I hope I have cleared some things up. Excuse me for being defensive. As always, I am not trying to pick a fight, I just feel misunderstood right about now. Likos and Anna, and everyone else, thank you for your patience.

Praise the Lord!

sean

Edited July 16, 2003 by mulls

[Anna]

Dearest Sean,

I did not mean you personally, and that is why I expressly said "fundamentalist sects," and although I used Adam and Jake's situation as an example, I wasn't accusing Adam of having an ear for error either. (If accusing is the right term.)

I meant...I've seen it time and again, when we become comfortable and sloppy talking about the Lord and our relationship with Him, that members of fundamentalist denominations will hop on something sloppily phrased as a doctrinal untruth, and then generally prove thusly with a Bible quote, in what seems to be an attempt to disprove Catholicism altogether.

No one will ever be able to disprove Catholicism using the Bible. God inspired the inerrant Bible, and God founded an infallible Church. Out of the Church, came the Bible. The two go hand in hand.

You sound as though you go to AoG services because you like what you hear there. Lots of lukewarm Catholics do the same. They find the Mass to be a rather boring "empty" ritual. That's because they haven't taken the time to learn what takes place during that Holy Sacrifice, where Jesus actually offers Himself to the Father for our sins...His same sacrifice that He gave on the Cross once for all, is re-presented to the Father in an unbloody manner by the priest, so that we all may eat His Body and drink His Blood, just as He instructed at the Last Supper (and in John 6). This most amesome of all Christ's miracles is offered to the Faithful, not just weekly, but daily! Yet the AoG deny its very existance! They even mock it; I have had them do so (former Catholics!). Once into that denomination, no new Truths enter in...but old Truths depart.

The new Truths were there all along, in the Catholic Church, even if the believer had not yet experienced them. For instance, (I think I'm safe in saying that) you go to the AoG to hear God's Word and experience the indwelling of the Holy Spirt.

Does the Catholic Church not preach the Word of God? Does she deny the existance of the Holy Spirit, or Its indwelling in people? No. That would be serious error...heresy, even.

But She presents God's Truths in their fullness. She offers all the Truths, not just a couple of them...or a few of them...All of them! (The Truth, the Whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth, so help me God!)

Yet, in AofG, you get a combo of Truth and heresy...Some of The Word of God, some misinterpretation of that Word, some indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and some heretical rejection of Truths passed on by Christ--including rejection of some of His greatest Gifts He left to mankind, which He promised would last through the ages!

So, Mulls, it just saddens me that you can feel comfortable each Sunday singing and listening to the AofG minister, (who is probably a wonderful person, don't get me wrong) while there's an empty spot with your name on it before the Lord's altar where His Body and Blood are being offered...

Edited July 16, 2003 by Anna

[Anna]

I chose to respond to your remarks about your Grandfather's funeral Mass separately. I see it as a separate issue...

Catholic priests and Protestant ministers sometimes deal with people and Faith issues very differently.

If the whole goal is to get people to truly accept Christ and become more active in their Faith, then kicking them in the teeth with a hard Truth when they're grieving just isn't appropriate. The priest will console and treat them with compassion at this time. To get people to come to the Church who have been lukewarm a long time may take more than some hard words at a low point in their lives...More than likely, the priest is willing to invest his whole lifetime to convert that one family...visiting with them, bearing gentle witness here and there...Even if they never become as active as they should have, perhaps on their deathbeds, they will recognize the need they have for Christ, and completely surrender themselves to Him as they draw their last breaths. This could have even happened with your Grandfather, for all I know. Could the priest have visited him just days or hours prior to his death?

Remember how the Good Shepherd leaves 99 to go in search of the one? Converting souls to Christ, enflaming them with desire for Him, often occurs on a one-on-one basis.

So, better if the priest could secure the Way for one old dying man, and then show love and compassion for the others.

Isaiah 7:18 It is easier to catch flies with honey than with vinegar.

The priests' years of kind words and warm influence may wind up winning more souls to heaven than would have been won by publicly spelling out sins of omission and lukewarmness during a time of bereavement. But God alone knows. Priests err in judgement, too. They're only human.

Sounds like this priest has a heart for your family...I hope sometime you'll pay him a visit. Perhaps just what he needs is an exemplary Catholic member of your family, to point the way to the others!

Pax Christi. <><