Apostolic Succession

October 25, 2003

Okay, so I was recently discussing this point with a Protestant, and they brought up what, to me, seemed like an absurd false dichotomy between Episcopal succession by the laying on of hands, and the passing on of APOSTOLIC authority.

To clarify. The person was attempting to argue that, yes, the apostles ordained certain men bishops, but this in no way implies that the actual office of apostle was handed on.

In his words..."yes, they were made bishops by the apostles. I agree. But I don't see how the apostles made them apostles!!"

So, what basis do we have for saying that Bishops, today, have the same authority as St. James, St. Paul, and St. Barnabas (just to give examples) and have an APOSTOLIC authority rather than just EPISCOPAL authority.

Is there even a valid reason or argument for creating such a dichotomy? Please have a crack at this...

October 25, 2003

Apostles were bishops, but Bishops are not Apostles.

Apostolic Succession does not mean that the Bishops we have are Apostles, it means they are a direct lineage from the Apostles.

i.e. The bishops who ordained the bishops who ordained the bishops, etc.... all the way to the Apostles.

The only other Church which has Apostolic Succession is the Greek Orthodox which split off from the Catholic Church in 1054 AD.

God Bless,

ironmonk

October 25, 2003

Okay, one question then...

Do Bishops have the same authority as the original Twelve (er..14?) I.E. is Apostolic authority given to Bishops. How is this to be demonstrated?

Edited October 25, 2003 by ICTHUS

October 25, 2003

By the laying on of hands.

Remember the loosing and binding part? THe power to forgive sins?

A bishop is the sucessor to the Apostles, but not called an Apostle.

Edited October 25, 2003 by cmotherofpirl

October 25, 2003

in the time of the Apostles, they were the bishops of their area. both titles comes from two different things: apostle, for them being one of the 12, and bishop for their roll in the church in their area. as far as authority goes, a bishop has the same power as a bishop reguardless (eccept the bishop of rome ) but the church doesn't hold every bishop up as an apostle.

October 25, 2003

we're all apostles in that we're all sent by God to preach the Gospel

Bishops are apostles in a special way as they are to be the one to keep the Gospel in their entire diocesan area

and priests are apostles in a special way as they are to be the one to preache the Gospel in their Parish area

and laypeople are called to be apostles in a special way to preach the Gospel to everyone they meet by their actions and/or words. (words only if necessary )

but THE TWELVE APOSTLES are the special ones whom we call THE Apostles... all of us are just some apostles. The Twelve Apostles were apostles in the specialist of special of their own ways, as they were taught by Jesus and made to preach the Gospel into the world where the Church was not even established. they were sent out to build the Church AND maintain it, while Bishops are sent to maintain and strengthen the Church

in conclusion, the word apostle means "one who is sent" or something along those lines.

October 25, 2003

APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION - - The method by which the episcopacy has been derived from the Apostles to the present day. Succession means successive consecration by the laying on of hands, performing the functions of the Apostles, receiving their commission in a lineal sequence from the Apostles, succession in episcopal sees traced back to the Apostles, and successive communion with the Apostolic See, i.e., the Bishop of Rome. Modern Catholic Dictionary, John A. Hardon, S.J.

St. John the Apostle was mentor and teacher to Ignatius to Antioch, who wrote the following between 107 and 110 A.D., shortly after St. John died at the end of the first Christian century:

"Obviously, anyone whom the Master of the household puts in charge of His domestic affairs, ought to be received by us in the same spirit as He who has charged him with this duty. Plainly then, one should look upon the bishop as upon the Lord Himself." Excerpt from the Letter to the Ephesians

"Heed the bishop, that God may heed you, too. My life is a ransom for those who are obedient to the bishop, presbyters [priests], and deacons." Excerpt from the Letter to Polycarp

[Referring to a deacon named Zotion . . .] "He is obedient to the bishop as to the grace of God, and to the presbyters as to the law of Jesus Christ." Excerpt from the Letter to the Magnesians

"Just as the Lord, therefore, being one with the Father, did nothing without Him, either by Himself or through the Apostles, so neither must you undertake anything without the bishop and the presbyters; nor must you attempt to convince yourselves that anything you do on your own account is acceptable." Excerpt from the Letter to the Magnesians

"Surely, when you submit to the bishop as representing Jesus Christ, it is clear to me that you are not living the life of men, but that of Jesus Christ, who died for us, that through faith in His death you might escape dying. It is needful then -- and such is your practice -- that you do nothing without your bishop; but be subject to the presbytery as representing the Apostles of Christ Jesus, our hope, in whom we are expected to live forever." [Excerpt from the Letter to the Trallians]

"He that is inside the sanctuary is pure; he that is outside the sanctuary is not pure. In other words: he that does anything apart from bishop, presbytery, or deacon has no pure conscience." [Excerpt from the Letter to the Trallians]

"You must all follow the lead of the bishop, as Jesus Christ followed that of the Father; follow the presbytery as you would the Apostles; reverence the deacons as you would God's commandment. Let no one do anything touching the Church, apart from the bishop. Let that celebration of the Eucharist be considered valid which is held under the bishop or anyone to whom he has committed it. Where the bishop appears, there let the people be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." [Excerpt from the Letter to the Smyrnaeans]

Ave Cor Mariae,

Katholikos (Jay)

October 26, 2003

The only other Church which has Apostolic Succession is the Greek Orthodox which split off from the Catholic Church in 1054 AD.

are all the other e. orthodox churches not valid, ex. Russian, Coptic, Ethiopian, Assyrian, Indian, Armenian, and the ones recognized by the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople?

What about the ones whose members are allowed to recieve communion in special circomstances that are listed in the Missal under COmmunion Guidlines?

October 26, 2003

APOSTLE

The Greek term apostolos means "one sent out" and is related the the Hebrew term siliah which translates "one who is to complete the task or acts in the place of the sender." In Classical Greek the noun referred to ships, vessels, etc., and when used as an adjective it described ambassadors, delegates or messengers.

Principal NT lists of Apostles are Matthew 10:2-4; Mark 3:16-19; Luke 6:13-16 and Acts 1:13. According to Acts 1-8 and other texts, the Apostles give "witness to Christ's resurrection" and so both announce and extend the work of the resurrection. They were chosen by Jesus (Acts 1:2; cf. Gospel passages cited above). They taught and presided over the early Church (Acts 2:42), spoke in Jesus' Name (Acts 5:40) and performed signs and wonders in His Name (Acts 5:12). They are bearers of the tradition, ministers of the Word and hold offices which concern the well-being and life of the whole Church.

Reference: Our Sunday Visitor's Catholic Encyclopedia, Rev. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, editor

(bold added for emphasis)

October 26, 2003

APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION IN SCRIPTURE

QUOTE

The bishops of the Catholic Church can trace their ordinations back to the

Apostles themselves. This laying on of hands in the sacrament of Holy Orders takes place as part of an uninterrupted chain connecting us to Christ Himself two thousand years ago. In every sense, today's bishops are the successors of Peter, Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, Matthew, James, Thaddaeus, Simon the Zealot and even -- in very rare and unfortunate instances --to Judas Iscariot. (bold added)

Acts 6:6 -- "They presented these men to the apostles who prayed and laid hands on them." The Church's authority is thus passed on from generation to generation.

Eph. 1:19-20 -- ". . . household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and the prophets..." The Church's authority if not based on human wisdom or insight, or even on the Bible, but on the authority of God passed to and through the apostles.

1 Tim 3:11 -- "This saying is trustworthy: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task." Note the reference to the episcopate as an "office." This clearly denotes an ongoing institution that is renewed from one generation to the next.

Acts 1:20-27 -- "May another take his office." Peter supervises the choice of Judas' successor; Judas' spot did not die with him; it had to be filled. Therefore, Jesus wasn't just calling men to follow him when he appointed the apostles; he was establishing an ongoing "office" which was to be occupied from one generation to the next.

Acts 14:23 -- St. Paul and St. Barnabas ordain others. No one ordains himself, nor does anyone presume to act as presbyter without first being ordained: "They appointed presbyters for them in each church..."

2 Tim 1:6 -- "I remind you to stir into flame the gift of God that you have received through the imposition of my hands." The laying on of hands is the vehicle whereupon the Holy Spirit -- the "flame" is imparted. This is an utterly sacramental view of the infusion of the life of the Holy Spirit, and of the passing on of apostolic authority.

2 Tim 2:1-2 -- St. Paul commissions Timothy to carry on the work of the apostles: "So you, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And what you have heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people

who will have the ability to teach others as well." Paul here gives us an excellent insight into the workings of Sacred Tradition -- the teachings of the apostles that are passed along, through the authority of the Church -- from one generation to the next.

1 Tim 3:14 -- "...Remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it..." Authority is derived from apostolic succession -- not from an appeal to "scripture alone." The Bible is quite clear on this.

Is 22-15-25 -- Eliakim is given the keys of the kingdom. Thus, he becomes "master of the palace," the second most powerful man in the realm, behind only the king himself, for he wields the authority of the king. Likewise, in Mt 26:19, Jesus gives St. Peter the keys to the kingdom is heaven. It is in this authority that Peter's power to bind and to loose -- in heaven as well as on earth -- is founded.

Heb 13:7 -- "Remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith." Again, the hierarchy is upheld.

Gal 1:8 -- "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let that one be accursed! As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed!" The truth of scriptural interpretation does not comes from men, but from the Holy Sprit, through the apostles and their successors. We are not free to arrive at our own interpretations of the scriptures, apart from the apostles and the Church Jesus founded upon them. inDouche, the authority of the scriptures is derived from the apostles--which is to say, the Church -- and not vice versa.

As any good dictionary will attest, the word, "priest," is derived from the word we find in scripture, "presbyter." In basic terms, the Catholic Church is still structured the way it was in apostolic times, as noted in the New Testament, with bishops, priests and deacons making up the ranks of the hierarchy.

UNQUOTE

Source: Catholic Doctrine in Scripture , by Gregory Oatis, published by the Coming Home Network, 2003

"Paul and Timothy, servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons . . ." Phil 1:1

Where are the Protestant bishops ??? If they were truly Sola Scriptura people as they claim to be, they'd have bishops. Anglicans (and Episcopalians) have retained a biblical hierarchy (bishop, priest, deacon). A few self-ordained Protestant "bishops" (e.g., 'Bishop Jake') show up on TBN. Mormons, who claim to be Christian, have their "bishops." But no matter, never mind -- calling a man a 'bishop' doesn't make him one!

One possesses the authority of a bishop by being validly ordained by an Apostle or one of his successors -- an impossibility for a Protestant.

Ave Cor Mariae, Katholikos

October 26, 2003