I'm Done.

[spathariossa]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Feb 7 2005, 07:25 PM'] I didn't advocate shunning them...I just said that it doesn't impact most people's day to day lives... [/quote]
If constantly reiterating that their lives aren't normal and are to be avoided at all costs isn't shunning then what the hell would you call it?

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='spathariossa' date='Feb 7 2005, 08:23 PM'] The problem is that a degree of normalcy attached on phatmass means "Treating these people with the courtesy due other human beings." It'd be nice to get that once in awhile. I find it ironic that you speak of courtesy when you judge other people's lives in a manner the Church hasn't even condoned.



Good, then I expect you not to give your uneducated opinion on it ever again. [/quote]
I'm afraid I'm going to have to keep on giving my uneducated opinion. When you teach me something then maybe it will be my educated opinion.
I'm sorry that you feel other people and I haven't been courteous to you. I'm not aware of any lapse on my part, but I apologize. I am also not aware of when I have been judgmental. If you could point out where you took offense perhaps we could correct it.

[cathqat]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Feb 7 2005, 07:25 PM'] I just said that it doesn't impact most people's day to day lives... [/quote]
I know. And my point was that you're always already affected by it, whether you're consciously aware of it or not. And if you don't care, you should. That's all.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='spathariossa' date='Feb 7 2005, 08:27 PM'] If constantly reiterating that their lives aren't normal and are to be avoided at all costs isn't shunning then what the hell would you call it? [/quote]
a constant position.

If I were shunning people we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[spathariossa]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Feb 7 2005, 07:33 PM'] a constant position.

If I were shunning people we wouldn't be having this conversation. [/quote]
Well let's put this another way.

Let's pretend I'm black and when I post on african-american issues you and 10000 other phatmassers reply with "Remember, most Americans aren't black. Being black isn't normal."

How do you think that will make someone feel? Strictly speaking, it's true. In my case only 1 in 30,000 people has my disorder. I'm well aware of that. But maybe you should take other people's feelings into account.

As far as teaching you and everyone else - I attempted that. The thread got closed, people learned nothing, and they persist in their ignorance.

How about this: The Church doesn't teach that trans people cannot or should not change genders in their day to day lives.

Edited February 8, 2005 by spathariossa

[jezic]

and it starts again.

would it be possible to agree to disagree? Is it so difficult to comprehend that each person sees stuff from a different point of view?

Jesus didn't make the Catholic church to make life easy, or clear up every problem, or even to have teaching on every single possible issue. It was made to open the doors to Heaven and get us backwards people down here some help from above. (and to save souls and all that other good stuff. He created it to carry on his teaching and messages of love and acceptance and giving ..... and on and on)

Each person has crosses to bear. Some of them are misunderstanding, others are injustice. Jesus did it all. You only have to bear part.

So you can argue about this forever if you want to or maybe, take the first step and start on the process of discovering why stuff is this way and how it fits into the whole plan of salvation. It would not waste the time that this debate does.

[spathariossa]

[quote name='jezic' date='Feb 7 2005, 07:45 PM'] and it starts again.

would it be possible to agree to disagree? Is it so difficult to comprehend that each person sees stuff from a different point of view?

Jesus didn't make the Catholic church to make life easy, or clear up every problem, or even to have teaching on every single possible issue. It was made to open the doors to Heaven and get us backwards people down here some help from above. (and to save souls and all that other good stuff. He created it to carry on his teaching and messages of love and acceptance and giving ..... and on and on)

Each person has crosses to bear. Some of them are misunderstanding, others are injustice. Jesus did it all. You only have to bear part.

So you can argue about this forever if you want to or maybe, take the first step and start on the process of discovering why stuff is this way and how it fits into the whole plan of salvation. It would not waste the time that this debate does. [/quote]
How can I possibly agree to disagree on the issue of whether I should be treated like a normal person?

[jezic]

who is treating you anything but normal? You just have a personal cross to bear. You chose to make yours public. Whether you want it to or not that affects the perception of you by other people.

As Christians their attitude should be one of love and acceptance, but that doesn't mean they have to like or agree with your chioce. THey may disagree with it and tell you so but that doesn't change that they were acting out of love and respect.

[spathariossa]

[quote name='jezic' date='Feb 7 2005, 07:51 PM'] who is treating you anything but normal? You just have a personal cross to bear. You chose to make yours public. Whether you want it to or not that affects the perception of you by other people.

As Christians their attitude should be one of love and acceptance, but that doesn't mean they have to like or agree with your chioce. THey may disagree with it and tell you so but that doesn't change that they were acting out of love and respect. [/quote]
They aren't acting out of love and respect. If they were acting out of love and respect then they wouldn't caution against too much "sympathy." They wouldn't say things like hate the sin love the sinner when the church doesn't even teach that I'm sinning. And if they say "You aren't normal" then they aren't treating me like a normal human being now are they?

It would be all well and good in theory if people practiced Christian correction. But they don't. And not only that but most of these people are too ridiculously unqualified to even come close to making an assertion as to the orthodoxy of my existence and yet they do so anyway.

Edited February 8, 2005 by spathariossa

[Socrates]

Spar.,

Take that chip of your shoulder. You keep taking offense at people where obviously none is intended. No one is "shunning" you or not treating you like a person. You keep shoving this "transexual" issue in everyone's face, and then getting all upset whenever anyone disagrees with your opinion about it.

All people are saying is that "transgenderism" is not a normal, healthy condition, and that personal sexual problems are best not discussed in public forums.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Feb 7 2005, 08:57 PM'] Spar.,

Take that chip of your shoulder.  You keep taking offense at people where obviously none is intended.  No one is "shunning" you or not treating you like a person.  You keep shoving this "transexual" issue in everyone's face, and then getting all upset whenever anyone disagrees with your opinion about it.

All people are saying is that "transgenderism" is not a normal, healthy condition, and that personal sexual problems are best not discussed in public forums.

[/quote]
thank you
also
[quote]
Let's pretend I'm black and when I post on african-american issues you and 10000 other phatmassers reply with "Remember, most Americans aren't black. Being black isn't normal."[/quote]

also
I don't believe in race, so the black thing has no sway with me. A disorder is different than the way you look.

Edited February 8, 2005 by toledo_jesus

[spathariossa]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Feb 7 2005, 07:57 PM'] Spar.,

Take that chip of your shoulder.  You keep taking offense at people where obviously none is intended.  No one is "shunning" you or not treating you like a person.  You keep shoving this "transexual" issue in everyone's face, and then getting all upset whenever anyone disagrees with your opinion about it.

All people are saying is that "transgenderism" is not a normal, healthy condition, and that personal sexual problems are best not discussed in public forums. [/quote]
It isn't sexual. I hate sex and find it repellant. I don't discuss sexual issues. I discuss gender issues. Big difference.

I'm not taking offense where none is intended, I'm simply pointing out the ignorance and offensive aspects of what people say. For example, keeping in mind that I'm trans:

[quote]All people are saying is that your condition is not a normal, healthy condition, and that your problems are best not discussed in public forums.[/quote]

Condition: 4 a : a state of being

So really what you said was:

[quote]All people are saying is that your existence is not a normal, healthy one, and that your problems are best not discussed in public forums.[/quote]

Edited February 8, 2005 by spathariossa

[jezic]

[quote] Spar.,

Take that chip of your shoulder. You keep taking offense at people where obviously none is intended. No one is "shunning" you or not treating you like a person. You keep shoving this "transexual" issue in everyone's face, and then getting all upset whenever anyone disagrees with your opinion about it.[/quote]

I think this said everything that i was going to.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='spathariossa' date='Feb 7 2005, 09:01 PM'] It isn't sexual. I hate sex and find it repellant. I don't discuss sexual issues. I discuss gender issues. Big difference.

I'm not taking offense where none is intended, I'm simply pointing out the ignorance and offensive aspects of what people say. For example:



Condition: 4 a : a state of being

So really what you said was:

[/quote]
so you used a definition of condition that didn't apply, looking for the offense. He meant condition in the sense of a mental disorder. You just made his point for him.

[spathariossa]

[quote name='jezic' date='Feb 7 2005, 08:03 PM']
I think this said everything that i was going to. [/quote]
I don't shove it in anyone's face you morons. That's just conservative code for "We don't want you to ever mention it in public discourse."

In fact, I didn't even bring it up. I don't have to. I just have to sit around and wait for ironmonk to bring it up. Or for dust to cite it as a reason that Phatmass might harm children.

You aren't ignorant, you're a couple of [color=red]not nice! [/color] Plain and simple. You're intentionally malicious because nobody could be this stupid.

Edited February 8, 2005 by cmotherofpirl