'nother question on Salvation

[goldenchild17]

I couldn't find the no salvation outside the Church thread that I started, so...

These questions were posed to me.


Here are some questions regarding salvation.

I think that previously in this thread, there is something like 'there is no salvation outside of the church'.

1) Is someone like Gandhi, who is considered by many a holy man, as well as a martyr, in Heaven? I think that he read the Bible and likes the message of love of the Bible, but probably does not recognize Jesus as the Son of God.
(He 'did good works', and also 'strived for holiness')

2) Before the coming of Christ, how are the believers (jews) saved?
As they saved by faith like Abraham?
(They obey 'the ten commandments'.)

3) After the coming of Christ, are the same reasons as 2) apply.
I mean does the same pre-requisite as 2) for salvation apply, even though they deny Christ as Son of God? Or they have an additional requirement to accept Jesus as Son of God?
(I don't know if my question is clear.)

What are the teachings of the Catholic church on those question?
(Maybe it is a question where different denominations have different answers, or maybe we have points where most of them agree upon?)

[thessalonian]

I sum it up in three words "we cannot judge".

That Ghandi was presented with Christianity and did not become Christian is concerning. However he also said "I would become a Christian if I had ever met one" shed's light on the possibility that it is our fault rather than his that he did not become one. The Catholic teaching of "there is no salvation outside the Church" is aimed at those who know the Church to be true and willfully reject it. Outside of these we cannot be the judge. Actually we don't even know who these are specifically.

Romans 2:15 is instructive with regard to those who are in some form of ignorance.

[13] For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
[14] When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
[15] They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them
[16] on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
[17]
But if you call yourself a Jew and rely upon the law and boast of your relation to God

Note that the law was written on the Gentiles heart. Thus they are saved by grace which put the law there. Note it is possible for them to do what the law requires. As an example we have the good samaritan story. Now Samaritans are a mix of Jew and Pagan. They came about in the Assyrian captivity of the Jews. Their religion is a mixture of Judaism and paganism. The God of Israel was for them one of many Gods. Jesus held him up as an example "go and do likewise". The priest and levite likely were following the law which did not allow them to touch a dead person. But they were not doing what the law requires which is love.

The story of Cornelius is also instructive in this regard. BEFORE he became Christian he was "a righteous and God fearing man" and God heard his prayer. Acts 10 & 11.



2) Before the coming of Christ, how are the believers (jews) saved?
As they saved by faith like Abraham?
(They obey 'the ten commandments'.)

By doing what the law requires (Roman 2:15 above). By grace. That is the only means of salvation. Grace alone.

3) After the coming of Christ, are the same reasons as 2) apply.
I mean does the same pre-requisite as 2) for salvation apply, even though they deny Christ as Son of God? Or they have an additional requirement to accept Jesus as Son of God?
(I don't know if my question is clear.)

I dont quite understand.
One is not culpable for things that he does not understand (provided he has not been given the grace to understand and neglected or rejected it). But be also informed that we are not saved by what we are ignorant of that is in error. Only truth saves.

Hope that helps

[thessalonian]

Here is your thread in which I dealt with most of this before by the way.

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=27098&hl=cornelius"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showt...98&hl=cornelius[/url]

[popestpiusx]

OK, here goes. Short and (hopefully) sweet.

1)The state of Ghandi's soul is known to no one. If he was saved, it is only through Jesus Christ and His Church. We can have no good hope that such was the case, but we can certainly pray that it was.

2)The chosen people of the OT who are saved, would be saved in the same manner as Abraham.

3)After the coming of Christ the Old Covenant was abolished, and a new one established. The new covenant is in Christ Jesus. The Old Covenant is no longer salvific for the Jews. They, like everyone, must submit to the Church and accept Jesus Christ (and follow his commandments). Salvation is found in no other name but His.

[popestpiusx]

Thess,
You beat me to the trigger.

[goldenchild17]

thanks Thess.