A Papal question

[drewmeister2]

I recently found this online, and I was curious to see how Catholics would answer these quotes from Church fathers on the topic of infallibility, and Papal primacy:

The word 'rock' has only a demonstrative value - it signifies nothing but the steadfast and firm faith of the apostles." - St. Cyril of Alexandria--"Of the Trinity",4th Book

"Peter and John were equal in dignity and honour. Chirst is the foundation of all - the unshakable Rock upon which we are all built as a spiritual edifice." St. Cyril of Alexandria, in his letter to Nestorius.

"He (referring to Peter) had not the primacy over the disciples, but among the disciples. His primacy among the disciples was the same as that of Stephen among the deacons." St. Augustine--Sermon 10 on Peter and Paul.

"As soon as Peter heard these words,'Whom say ye that I am', remembering his place he exercised this primacy, a primacy of confession, not of honour, a primacy of faith, not of rank." St. Ambrose, "De In Som Sacr." 4:32

"But observe how Peter does everything with the common consent; nothing imperiously." St. John Chrysostom, Homily III on Acts 1:12

"To all the Apostles after His resurrection He gives equal power and says, 'As the Father sent me, so I send you'." St. Cyprian, "De Unitate"

"For neither did Peter, whom first the Lord chose....when Paul disputed with him afterwards about the circumcision, claim anything to himself insolently, nor arrogantly assume anything, so as to say that he held a primacy, and that he ought to be obeyed by novices and those lately come." St. Cypriam, Epistle 70 concerning the baptism of heretics.

Thanks!

[StColette]

"But observe how Peter does everything with the common consent; nothing imperiously." St. John Chrysostom, Homily III on Acts 1:12

I cleary don't think this is disproving Papacy primacy. Of course Peter would have done things with the consent of others. It calls to mind this Bible verse

Mt:20:27:
27 And he that will be first among you shall be your servant. (DRV)

Above anything the Pope is the servant to the Church, providing for Her and for Her children, putting all others before himself.

lol still working on the rest

Edited February 2, 2005 by StColette

[drewmeister2]

[quote name='StColette' date='Feb 1 2005, 07:22 PM'] Mt:18:19:
19 Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning anything whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven. (DRV)

Again Christ speaking to His Apostles, that if two of them shall agree about something, or consent something, then it shall be done.

[/quote]
But this quote shows how that the Pope can't act infallibly, ex cathedra, by acting alone, without meeting with the other bishops. Notice, Christ says two of you, not one of you.

[StColette]

lol Papal Primacy is not one of my strong points

50 NEW TESTAMENT PROOFS FOR PETRINE PRIMACY AND THE PAPACY

The Catholic doctrine of the papacy is biblically-based, and is derived from the evident primacy of St. Peter among the apostles. Like all Christian doctrines, it has undergone development through the centuries, but it hasn't departed from the essential components already existing in the leadership and prerogatives of St. Peter. These were given to him by our Lord Jesus Christ, acknowledged by his contemporaries, and accepted by the early Church. The biblical Petrine data is quite strong and convincing, by virtue of its cumulative weight, especially for those who are not hostile to the notion of the papacy from the outset. This is especially made clear with the assistance of biblical commentaries. The evidence of Holy Scripture (RSV) follows:

1. Matthew 16:18: "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church; and the powers of death shall not prevail against it."

The rock (Greek, petra) referred to here is St. Peter himself, not his faith or Jesus Christ. Christ appears here not as the foundation, but as the architect who "builds." The Church is built, not on confessions, but on confessors - living men (see, e.g., 1 Pet 2:5). Today, the overwhelming consensus of the great majority of all biblical scholars and commentators is in favor of the traditional Catholic understanding. Here St. Peter is spoken of as the foundation-stone of the Church, making him head and superior of the family of God (i.e., the seed of the doctrine of the papacy). Moreover, Rock embodies a metaphor applied to him by Christ in a sense analogous to the suffering and despised Messiah (1 Pet 2:4-8; cf. Mt 21:42). Without a solid foundation a house falls. St. Peter is the foundation, but not founder of the Church, administrator, but not Lord of the Church. The Good Shepherd (John 10:11) gives us other shepherds as well (Eph 4:11).

2. Matthew 16:19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven . . ."

The "power of the keys" has to do with ecclesiastical discipline and administrative authority with regard to the requirements of the faith, as in Isaiah 22:22 (cf. Is 9:6; Job 12:14; Rev 3:7). From this power flows the use of censures, excommunication, absolution, baptismal discipline, the imposition of penances, and legislative powers. In the Old Testament a steward, or prime minister is a man who is "over a house" (Gen 41:40; 43:19; 44:4; 1 Ki 4:6; 16:9; 18:3; 2 Ki 10:5; 15:5; 18:18; Is 22:15,20-21).

3. Matthew 16:19 ". . . whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

"Binding" and "loosing" were technical rabbinical terms, which meant to "forbid" and "permit" with reference to the interpretation of the law, and secondarily to "condemn" or "place under the ban" or "acquit." Thus, St. Peter and the popes are given the authority to determine the rules for doctrine and life, by virtue of revelation and the Spirit's leading (Jn 16:13), and to demand obedience from the Church. "Binding and loosing" represent the legislative and judicial powers of the papacy and the bishops (Mt 18:17-18; Jn 20:23). St. Peter, however, is the only apostle who receives these powers by name and in the singular, making him preeminent.

4. Peter's name occurs first in all lists of apostles (Mt 10:2; Mk 3:16; Lk 6:14; Acts 1:13). Matthew even calls him the "first" (10:2). Judas Iscariot is invariably mentioned last.

5. Peter is almost without exception named first whenever he appears with anyone else. In one (only?) example to the contrary, Galatians 2:9, where he ("Cephas") is listed after James and before John, he is clearly preeminent in the entire context (e.g., 1:18-19; 2:7-8).

6. Peter alone among the apostles receives a new name, Rock, solemnly conferred (Jn 1:42; Mt 16:18).

7. Likewise, Peter is regarded by Jesus as the Chief Shepherd after Himself (Jn 21:15-17), singularly by name, and over the universal Church, even though others have a similar but subordinate role (Acts 20:28; 1 Pet 5:2).

8. Peter alone among the apostles is mentioned by name as having been prayed for by Jesus Christ in order that his "faith may not fail" (Lk 22:32).

9. Peter alone among the apostles is exhorted by Jesus to "strengthen your brethren" (Lk 22:32).

10. Peter first confesses Christ's divinity (Mt 16:16).

11. Peter alone is told that he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation (Mt 16:17).

12. Peter is regarded by the Jews (Acts 4:1-13) as the leader and spokesman of Christianity.

13. Peter is regarded by the common people in the same way (Acts 2:37-41; 5:15).

14. Jesus Christ uniquely associates Himself and Peter in the miracle of the tribute-money (Mt 17:24-27).

15. Christ teaches from Peter's boat, and the miraculous catch of fish follows (Lk 5:1-11): perhaps a metaphor for the pope as a "fisher of men" (cf. Mt 4:19).

16. Peter was the first apostle to set out for, and enter the empty tomb (Lk 24:12; Jn 20:6).

17. Peter is specified by an angel as the leader and representative of the apostles (Mk 16:7).

18. Peter leads the apostles in fishing (Jn 21:2-3,11). The "bark" (boat) of Peter has been regarded by Catholics as a figure of the Church, with Peter at the helm.

19. Peter alone casts himself into the sea to come to Jesus (Jn 21:7).

20. Peter's words are the first recorded and most important in the upper room before Pentecost (Acts 1:15-22).

21. Peter takes the lead in calling for a replacement for Judas (Acts 1:22).

22. Peter is the first person to speak (and only one recorded) after Pentecost, so he was the first Christian to "preach the gospel" in the Church era (Acts 2:14-36).

23. Peter works the first miracle of the Church Age, healing a lame man (Acts 3:6-12).

24. Peter utters the first anathema (Ananias and Sapphira) emphatically affirmed by God (Acts 5:2-11)!

25. Peter's shadow works miracles (Acts 5:15).

26. Peter is the first person after Christ to raise the dead (Acts 9:40).

27. Cornelius is told by an angel to seek out Peter for instruction in Christianity (Acts 10:1-6).

28. Peter is the first to receive the Gentiles, after a revelation from God (Acts 10:9-48).

29. Peter instructs the other apostles on the catholicity (universality) of the Church (Acts 11:5-17).

30. Peter is the object of the first divine interposition on behalf of an individual in the Church Age (an angel delivers him from prison - Acts 12:1-17).

31. The whole Church (strongly implied) offers "earnest prayer" for Peter when he is imprisoned (Acts 12:5).

32. Peter presides over and opens the first Council of Christianity, and lays down principles afterwards accepted by it (Acts 15:7-11).

33. Paul distinguishes the Lord's post-Resurrection appearances to Peter from those to other apostles (1 Cor 15:4-8). The two disciples on the road to Emmaus make the same distinction (Lk 24:34), in this instance mentioning only Peter ("Simon"), even though they themselves had just seen the risen Jesus within the previous hour (Lk 24:33).

34. Peter is often spoken of as distinct among apostles (Mk 1:36; Lk 9:28,32; Acts 2:37; 5:29; 1 Cor 9:5).

35. Peter is often spokesman for the other apostles, especially at climactic moments (Mk 8:29; Mt 18:21; Lk 9:5; 12:41; Jn 6:67 ff.).

36. Peter's name is always the first listed of the "inner circle" of the disciples (Peter, James and John - Mt 17:1; 26:37,40; Mk 5:37; 14:37).

37. Peter is often the central figure relating to Jesus in dramatic gospel scenes such as walking on the water (Mt 14:28-32; Lk 5:1 ff., Mk 10:28; Mt 17:24 ff.).

38. Peter is the first to recognize and refute heresy, in Simon Magus (Acts 8:14-24).

39. Peter's name is mentioned more often than all the other disciples put together: 191 times (162 as Peter or Simon Peter, 23 as Simon, and 6 as Cephas). John is next in frequency with only 48 appearances, and Peter is present 50% of the time we find John in the Bible! Archbishop Fulton Sheen reckoned that all the other disciples combined were mentioned 130 times. If this is correct, Peter is named a remarkable 60% of the time any disciple is referred to!

40. Peter's proclamation at Pentecost (Acts 2:14-41) contains a fully authoritative interpretation of Scripture, a doctrinal decision and a disciplinary decree concerning members of the "House of Israel" (2:36) - an example of "binding and loosing."

41. Peter was the first "charismatic", having judged authoritatively the first instance of the gift of tongues as genuine (Acts 2:14-21).

42. Peter is the first to preach Christian repentance and baptism (Acts 2:38).

43. Peter (presumably) takes the lead in the first recorded mass baptism (Acts 2:41).

44. Peter commanded the first Gentile Christians to be baptized (Acts 10:44-48).

45. Peter was the first traveling missionary, and first exercised what would now be called "visitation of the churches" (Acts 9:32-38,43). Paul preached at Damascus immediately after his conversion (Acts 9:20), but hadn't traveled there for that purpose (God changed his plans!). His missionary journeys begin in Acts 13:2.

46. Paul went to Jerusalem specifically to see Peter for fifteen days in the beginning of his ministry (Gal 1:18), and was commissioned by Peter, James and John (Gal 2:9) to preach to the Gentiles.

47. Peter acts, by strong implication, as the chief bishop/shepherd of the Church (1 Pet 5:1), since he exhorts all the other bishops, or "elders."

48. Peter interprets prophecy (2 Pet 1:16-21).

49. Peter corrects those who misuse Paul's writings (2 Pet 3:15-16).

50. Peter wrote his first epistle from Rome, according to most scholars, as its bishop, and as the universal bishop (or, pope) of the early Church. "Babylon" (1 Pet 5:13) is regarded as code for Rome.

[StColette]

lol btw Augustine kinda couldn't make up his mind I guess

AUGUSTINE

"Among these [apostles] Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven"' (Sermons 295:2 [a.d. 411]).

The Primacy of Peter

The Church Fathers not only recognized that Peter was the rock on whom Christ built his Church, they also recognized the implications of this fact — that Peter had a special place or primacy among the apostles.

CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA
"[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? 'Behold, we have left all and have followed you"' [Matt. 19:27, Mark 10:28] (Who Is the Rich Man That is Saved? 21:3-5 [a.d. 200]).

TERTULLIAN
"[T]he Lord said to Peter, 'On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven' [Matt. 16:18-19]. . . . Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church; and whatever you shall have bound or you shall have loosed, not what they shall have bound or they shall have loosed" (Modesty 21:9-10 [a.D. 220]).

LETTER OF CLEMENT TO JAMES
"Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first-fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect" (Letter of Clement to James 2 [a.d. 221]).

ORIGEN
"[I]f we were to attend carefully to the Gospels, we should also find, in relation to those things which seem to be common to Peter . . . a great difference and a preeminence in the things [Jesus] said to Peter, compared with the second class [of apostles]. For it is no small difference that Peter received the keys not of one heaven but of more, and in order that whatsoever things he binds on earth may be bound not in one heaven but in them all, as compared with the many who bind on earth and loose on earth, so that these things are bound and loosed not in [all] the heavens, as .in the case of Peter, but in one only; for they do not reach so high a stage with power as Peter to bind and loose in all the heavens" (Commentary on Matthew 13:31 [a.d. 248]).

CYPRIAN
"The Lord says to Peter: 1 say to you,' he says, 'that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church' . . . On him he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4 [a.d. 251]).

CYRIL OF JERUSALEM
"In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, both the chief of the apostles and the keeper of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, in the name of Christ healed Aeneas the paralytic at Lydda, which is now called Diospolis" [Acts 9:32-34] (Catechetical Lectures, 17:27 [a.d. 350]).

EPHRAIM
"Jesus said:] Simon, my follower, I have made you the foundation of the holy Church. I betimes called you Peter, because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for me. If they should wish to build what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head of the fountain from which my teaching flows; you are the chief of my disciples. Through you I will give drink to all peoples. Yours is that life-giving sweetness which I dispense. I have chosen you to be, as it were, the first-born in my institution so that, as the heir, you may be executor of my treasures. I have given you the keys of my kingdom. Behold, I have given you authority over all my treasures" (Homilies 4:1 [a.d. 3 51]).

AMBROSE
"[Christ] made answer: 'You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church ...' Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]?" (The Faith 4:5 [a.d. 379]).

POPE DAMASUS I
"Likewise it is decreed . . . that it ought to be announced that . . . the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: 'You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven ...' [Matt. 16:18-19]. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it" (Decree of Damasus 3 [a.d. 382]).

JEROME
"Simon Peter, the son of John, from the village of Bethsaida in the province of Galilee, brother of Andrew the apostle, and himself chief of the apostles, after having been bishop of the church of Antioch and having preached to the Dispersion . . . pushed on to Rome in the second year of Claudius to overthrow Simon Magus and held the sacerdotal chair there for twenty-five years until the last, that is the fourteenth, year of Nero. At his hands he received the crown of martyrdom being nailed to the cross with his head towards the ground and his feet raised on high, asserting that he was unworthy to be crucified in the same manner as his Lord" (Lives of Illustrious Men I [a.d. 396]).

POPE INNOCENT I
"In seeking the things of God . . . you have acknowledged that judgment is to be referred to us [the pope] and have shown that you know that is owed to the Apostolic See [Rome], if all of us placed in this position are to desire to follow the apostle himself [Peter] from whom the episcopate itself and the total authority of this name have emerged" (Letters 29:1 [a.d. 408]).

AUGUSTINE
"Who is ignorant that the first of the apostles is the most blessed Peter?" (Commentary on John 56:1 [a.d. 416]).

COUNCIL OF EPHESUS
"Philip, the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See [Rome] said: 'There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors'" (Acts of the Council, session 3 [a.d. 431]).

POPE LEO I
"Our Lord Jesus Christ . . . established the worship belonging to the divine [Christian] religion . . . But the Lord desired that the sacrament of this gift should pertain to all the apostles in such a way that it might be found principally in the most blessed Peter, the highest of all the apostles. And he wanted his gifts to flow into the entire body from Peter himself, as if from the head, in such a way that anyone who had dared to separate himself from the solidarity of Peter would realize that he was himself no longer a sharer in the divine mystery" (Letters 10:1 [a.d. 445]).

POPE LEO I
"Although bishops have a common dignity, they are not all of the same rank. Even among the most blessed apostles, though they were alike in honor, there was a certain distinction of power. "All were equal in being chosen, but it was given to one to be preeminent over the others. . . . [So today through the bishops] the care of the universal Church would converge in the one See of Peter, and nothing should ever be at odds with this head" (ibid., 14:11).

POPE LEO I
"[T]he blessed Peter persevering in the strength of the rock, which he has received, has not abandoned the helm of the Church, which he understood. For he was ordained before the rest in such a way that, from his being called the rock, from his being pronounced the foundation, from his being constituted the doorkeeper of the kingdom of heaven, from his being set as the umpire to bind and loose, whose judgments shall retain their validity in heaven, from all these mystical tides we might know the nature of his association with Christ" (Sermons 3:2-3 [a.d. 450]).

AMBROSE [A.D. 339-397]
Born at Treves, Ambrose was trained in rhetoric and law and in 370 became the consul of Liguria and Emilia, but resided in Milan. When the Arian bishop of Milan, Auxentius, died, the Catholic and Arian parties began a conflict over who would be his successor. Ambrose, then a catechumen, intervened and was surprised to find himself named as the choice of both parties. He was ordained bishop in 374, a week after he was baptized.

Ambrose was a prolific and brilliant writer, especially of pastoral theology. He managed to prevent the Roman senate from restoring a statue of the goddess of victory to the senate chambers and compelled the Emperor Theodosius to do public penance after a massacre of 7,000 people. Though a man of accomplishment in his own right, he is often remembered as the man who converted an even greater Church Father, Augustine.

Edited February 2, 2005 by StColette

[StColette]

[quote name='drewmeister2' date='Feb 1 2005, 08:29 PM'] But this quote shows how that the Pope can't act infallibly, ex cathedra, by acting alone, without meeting with the other bishops.  Notice, Christ says two of you, not one of you. [/quote]

lol I did something stupid with that verse lol I took it out of context ROFL The verse I put was speaking about collective prayer thus put in context it would read

19 Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning anything whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven.
20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

*shakes head* lol gettin in too big of a hurry and not watching what i'm doin.

anywho continue reading this:

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/chwordin3.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/chwordin3.htm[/url]

Edited February 2, 2005 by StColette

[drewmeister2]

Thank you so much for all your responses!

[StColette]

[quote name='drewmeister2' date='Feb 2 2005, 05:58 PM'] Thank you so much for all your responses! [/quote]
no problem

[phatcatholic]

drew,

i don't know if we've really solved it tho. i mean, all we've done so far is "ECF-sling" (akin to "verse-slinging"). altho a particular ECF may support the catholic position in one place, we still have the issue of his seeminly rejecting it elsewhere. so that issue still needs to be resolved.

i think it will take some hard-core research. one would have to find all of the works cited and read the context of the passage. you may even have to read many different works by one ECF so as to digest his entire frame of mind on a subject. you also need to know who the audience is and what is the author's purpose for his writing. i do know that often times the ECF's focus on the rock as faith in Christ b/c they are battling some heretical sect who denies Jesus. i also know that and ECF can appeal to the symbolic meaning of the rock and still believe in its application to Peter. all this needs to be taken into account when reading these supposed "proofs" against the papacy.

steve ray has written an excellent article on how to approach quotations like the ones you have listen. i think it would be a good place to start. go [url="http://www.catholic-convert.com/DesktopModules/UserDocuments/UserDocuments_ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=320"][b]here[/b][/url]. if you need anymore help, just let me know.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[StColette]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Feb 3 2005, 03:10 AM'] i think it will take some hard-core research. one would have to find all of the works cited and read the context of the passage. you may even have to read many different works by one ECF so as to digest his entire frame of mind on a subject. you also need to know who the audience is and what is the author's purpose for his writing. i do know that often times the ECF's focus on the rock as faith in Christ b/c they are battling some heretical sect who denies Jesus. i also know that and ECF can appeal to the symbolic meaning of the rock and still believe in its application to Peter. all this needs to be taken into account when reading these supposed "proofs" against the papacy. [/quote]
Amen to that, can you imagine the research that would have to go into something like this But Nick's right, we would have to go back through and find the quote in context to see truly what the ECFs were speaking about or even referring to.

btw Drew, I wanted to ask where you came across these quotes exactly ? I've found a few here and there but not all of them.

God Bless,
Jennie

[cathqat]

"Many Church Fathers refer to more than one thing as the 'rock' in Matthew 16:18 (e.g. Peter, Peter's faith or confession, Christ), because the Church Fathers rightly believed that Scripture may have more than one level of meaning or more than one sense (the [i]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i] says the same). Thus, when Luther argued that the Church Fathers also called Peter's confession the 'rock,' Eck, his Catholic debating opponent, said Catholics never denied that Peter's confession is rightly called 'rock'! What Catholics oppose are interpretations which exclude the understanding that Peter is the rock, especially on the primary, literal level of the text." [url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/8410/pete.html"]Saint Peter the Rock, First Pope of Rome[/url]