Sola Fide

[Didacus]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='47788' date='Oct 27 2003, 01:53 PM']Sola Fide started with Luther and the Lutherans have seen the light and given it up. I posted this with a short commentary at Joolye's thread, Do our differences really matter."

[color="purple"]"Together we confess: [b]By grace alone[/b], in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works. "[/color]

This is an excerpt from the Lutheran-Catholic Joint Declaration on Justification, signed in 1999 by the Catholic Church and the Lutheran World Federation, representing 94% of all the world's Lutherans.

Yippee! (Clicks heels and jumps in the air)

Ave Cor Mariae,
Katholikos[/quote]

THe Lutherans I've met have demonstrate an adhament disgust of Catholicism. How has this statement been received in the Lutheran community?

[Didacus]

[quote name='notbilln' post='46340' date='Oct 24 2003, 07:05 PM']Hmm.. Chain rule for math( calculus?) applied to logic.

Well, the chain rule of calculus applies for any normal space that is typically delt with in introductory mathematics. However, there are some manifolds on which it does not apply. And the point you are making is an analogy to the chain law and not the chain law itself.

For those of you that haven't had calc1 the chain law states that
If g'(x) and f'(g(x)) exist and F9x)=f(g(x)) then F'(x) =f'(g(x))g'(x).

or in the lieboniz notation

dy/dx= dy/dy* du/dx

What you have said is true, but not by the chain law. I'm sure there is a more analogus rule in logic, but I didn't take logic.[/quote]

And this puts to rest the dispute that the 'slippery slope' is not a fallacy but a mathematical reality


Only the division by zero (or the derivative of a constant) remains unchangeable - that is God, His Church and the Saints.

[Justin86]

I don't need to fry my brain to be convinced that Sola Fide is cr[i][/i]ap. I already know it is.

[Justin86]

[quote name='Didacus' post='1705524' date='Nov 20 2008, 10:49 PM']Only the division by zero (or the derivative of a constant) remains unchangeable - that is God, His Church and the Saints.[/quote]
Actually, that depends on whether or not you are considering zero(0) an odd or even number.

[Didacus]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1705532' date='Nov 20 2008, 09:58 AM']Actually, that depends on whether or not you are considering zero(0) an odd or even number.[/quote]

Maybe you should ressurect the thread discussing this?

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='kdewolf2' post='47810' date='Oct 27 2003, 01:30 PM']I would just like to point out how vague that statement really is. I don't think the Lutherans really made any compromises. The language is thoroughly Protestant, and it expresses mostly Protestant notions. Protestants make a distinction between justification and sanctification. Justification is when God deems us "just" or "righteous" because of our faith although we are still inwardly corrupt and sinful. Sanctification is when we inwardly change and become more Christ-like with the help of the Holy Spirit. Justification comes before sanctification, and whereas justification is completed all at once sanctification is usually considered a life-long process. The statement is not really saying we are saved by "faith and works." It is really only saying that after we are saved by faith alone, we get the Holy Spirit who will help us carry on to good works. The Catholic doctrine is different, because it makes no distinction between justification and sanctification. Justification is the inward change, the renewal of the interior man, brought about by grace, by faith, by the Holy Spirit. The faith we have must be active in charity and good works. Otherwise we cannot be saved.[/quote]

I have always had difficulty grasping the differences in our belief of justification/salvation as opposed to the protestants. Your description helped me understand this better...

[Paddington]

I've heard people say "Catholics and Lutherans now agree on salvation."
I've read the thingy, and it's nice, but there's so much it doesn't say.
I've decided that if anybody else says "they now agree," to ask them if Lutherans believe that submission to the pope is necessary for salvation.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='kdewolf2' post='47810' date='Oct 27 2003, 02:30 PM']I would just like to point out how vague that statement really is. I don't think the Lutherans really made any compromises. The language is thoroughly Protestant, and it expresses mostly Protestant notions. Protestants make a distinction between justification and sanctification. Justification is when God deems us "just" or "righteous" because of our faith although we are still inwardly corrupt and sinful. Sanctification is when we inwardly change and become more Christ-like with the help of the Holy Spirit. Justification comes before sanctification, and whereas justification is completed all at once sanctification is usually considered a life-long process. The statement is not really saying we are saved by "faith and works." It is really only saying that after we are saved by faith alone, we get the Holy Spirit who will help us carry on to good works. The Catholic doctrine is different, because it makes no distinction between justification and sanctification. Justification is the inward change, the renewal of the interior man, brought about by grace, by faith, by the Holy Spirit. The faith we have must be active in charity and good works. Otherwise we cannot be saved.[/quote]

Two questions: How can the statement be saying we are saved by faith alone when it specifically says "grace alone"? And if there is no distinction between justification and sanctification, can these two words be used interchangably?

I was pretty sure there had to be some sort of distinction, but it's hard to find a good explanation of these concepts.

[LouisvilleFan]

sola

Edited November 20, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[LouisvilleFan]

gracia.

Burma Shave.

Edited November 20, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='kdewolf2' post='47810' date='Oct 27 2003, 11:30 AM']I would just like to point out how vague that statement [from the Joint Declaration] really is.[/quote]
Not only is the statement vague, but the whole document is vague and equivocal, and not only in what it says, but how it says it.

[reyb]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='47788' date='Oct 27 2003, 12:53 PM']Sola Fide started with Luther and the Lutherans have seen the light and given it up. I posted this with a short commentary at Joolye's thread, Do our differences really matter."

[color="purple"]"Together we confess: [b]By grace alone[/b], in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works. "[/color]

This is an excerpt from the Lutheran-Catholic Joint Declaration on Justification, signed in 1999 by the Catholic Church and the Lutheran World Federation, representing 94% of all the world's Lutherans.

Yippee! (Clicks heels and jumps in the air)

Ave Cor Mariae,
Katholikos[/quote]

[indent]Okay. Let us include this in our discussion regarding 'Justification by Faith Alone'.[/indent]

[reyb]

[indent]With due respect to Katholikos, I will post it in the other thread - Justification by Faith Alone.[/indent]

[dairygirl4u2c]

luther said "saved by faith alone but faith is never alone."

there's decent protestant arguments, and this is it. ie, the works are necessary, but they just disagree about how it's applied to your salvation etc.

some prots say there's no requirement for works. this is just false. as james shows.

[reyb]

[indent]With due respect to OneForTruth and thedude,
Please see 'Justification by faith alone' and post your argument there. But if your Sola Fide 'proof' has some mathematical formula you can post it here. [/indent]