Matthew 26:26-30

[ICTHUS]

26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

Notice when Our Lord referred to the elements as "the fruit of the vine", He had already spoken the (supposed) Words of Institution. Thus, if He had referred to what was actually in His hand, (Blood) as wine (fruit of the vine) wouldn't He have been lying?

Augustne, on the Eucharist.

“"Do ye imagine that I am about to make divisions of this My Body which ye see; and to cut up My Members, and give them to you? `What then if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up where He was before?'" Assuredly, He who could ascend Whole could not be consumed. So then He both gave us of His Body and Blood a healthful refreshment, and briefly solved so great a question as to His Own Entireness. Let them then who eat, eat on, and them that drink, drink; let them hunger and thirst; eat Life, drink Life. That eating, is to be refreshed; but thou art in such wise refreshed, as that that whereby thou art refreshed, faileth not. That drinking, what is it but to live? Eat Life, drink Life; thou shalt have life, and the Life is Entire. But then this shall be, that is, the Body and the Blood of Christ shall be each man's Life; if what is taken in the Sacrament visibly is in the truth itself eaten spiritually, drunk spiritually. For we have heard the Lord Himself saying, "It is the Spirit That quickeneth, but the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken unto you, are Spirit and Life.” [Augustine, Sermon LXXXI, 1]

[IXpenguin21]

NAB VERSION:

While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, "Take and eat; this is my body."

Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you,

for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.

I tell you, from now on I shall not drink this fruit of the vine until the day when I drink it with you new in the kingdom of my Father."

Then, after singing a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

first off, what has Jesus ever lied about to give us reason that he doesn't mean what he says where i have underlined?

number 2,

at the last supper, Jesus and the apostles were celebrating Passover in the traditional Jewish way. there's a Seder meal where different food represents different things about the passing over of the angel of death on all the Hebrew families in Egypt by them slaughtering the first born, unblemished, lamb and smearing it's blood on the door posts and the lintel of their doorways. at that meal, there is 3 times where wine is used to represent something. at the last supper, Jesus and his disciples shared the first two cups of wine with his friends at the appropriate times of the Passover, but when it comes to the third time he does not. how do we know this? we know it's the third time because prior to it, Jesus consecrates the unleavened bread as His body, and we know that the unleavened bread is mentioned right before the third cup of wine in the Passover Seder. Because Christ is the first born, unblemished, lamb of God that is to be slain for the 'passing over' of the world, Christ is our Passover sacrifice. to complete this picture of him, he doesn't drink the 3rd and final cup of wine w/ his friends, therefore his Seder meal would not be complete until he drinks again.

Matthew 27:48-50:

Immediately one of them ran to get a sponge; he soaked it in wine, and putting it on a reed, gave it to him to drink.

But the rest said, "Wait, let us see if Elijah comes to save him."

But Jesus cried out again in a loud voice, and gave up his spirit.

Jesus finally drinks His third cup of the Hebrew Passover at the very moment that He completes the Passover for all of creation.

Jesus saying that he won't drink of the fruit of the vine was not referring to the Eucharist, but rather the other 2 cups of wine at the Passover and the third to come.

Augustine on the Eucharist:

"The bread which you see on the altar is, sanctified by the word of God, the body of Christ; that chalice, or rather what is contained in the chalice, is, sanctified by the word of God, the blood of Christ. {Sermon 227; on p.377}" ;)

[ICTHUS]

Two Points of Enquiry.

Could you provide a link to a rubric or explanation for the Passover ceremony, please? I completely agree that the passage should be interpreted in light of Jewish passover customs (which is exactly what it was, the Passover!) But I should like to see it an explanation of the ritual.

And secondly, how do you explain that quote from Augustine in light of the one I mentioned above. Could you find that quote you mentioned on http://www.newadvent.org/fathers please?

God bless,

Ryan

Edited October 24, 2003 by ICTHUS

[IXpenguin21]

Seder:

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/holidays/P...r_Structure.htm

st. augustine's sermon 227 is mentioned here

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05502a.htm

and here

http://www.chnetwork.org/journals/eucharis...eucharist_7.htm

i've found other's reference to it, but i have not found the actual works.

[Anna]

http://webpages.marshall.edu/~trimbol3/4thcup4.htm

Might this help?

Also, remember, Christ referred to Himself (figuratively, true) as "the vine," so it's not that much of a stretch of consider the cup of His Blood (literally) Fruit of the Vine.

[ICTHUS]

NAB VERSION:

While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, "Take and eat; this is my body."

Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you,

for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.

I tell you, from now on I shall not drink this fruit of the vine until the day when I drink it with you new in the kingdom of my Father."

Then, after singing a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

first off, what has Jesus ever lied about to give us reason that he doesn't mean what he says where i have underlined?

number 2,

at the last supper, Jesus and the apostles were celebrating Passover in the traditional Jewish way. there's a Seder meal where different food represents different things about the passing over of the angel of death on all the Hebrew families in Egypt by them slaughtering the first born, unblemished, lamb and smearing it's blood on the door posts and the lintel of their doorways. at that meal, there is 3 times where wine is used to represent something. at the last supper, Jesus and his disciples shared the first two cups of wine with his friends at the appropriate times of the Passover, but when it comes to the third time he does not. how do we know this? we know it's the third time because prior to it, Jesus consecrates the unleavened bread as His body, and we know that the unleavened bread is mentioned right before the third cup of wine in the Passover Seder. Because Christ is the first born, unblemished, lamb of God that is to be slain for the 'passing over' of the world, Christ is our Passover sacrifice. to complete this picture of him, he doesn't drink the 3rd and final cup of wine w/ his friends, therefore his Seder meal would not be complete until he drinks again.

Matthew 27:48-50:

Immediately one of them ran to get a sponge; he soaked it in wine, and putting it on a reed, gave it to him to drink.

But the rest said, "Wait, let us see if Elijah comes to save him."

But Jesus cried out again in a loud voice, and gave up his spirit.

Jesus finally drinks His third cup of the Hebrew Passover at the very moment that He completes the Passover for all of creation.

Jesus saying that he won't drink of the fruit of the vine was not referring to the Eucharist, but rather the other 2 cups of wine at the Passover and the third to come.

Augustine on the Eucharist:

"The bread which you see on the altar is, sanctified by the word of God, the body of Christ; that chalice, or rather what is contained in the chalice, is, sanctified by the word of God, the blood of Christ. {Sermon 227; on p.377}" 

That article mentioned four cups of wine, not three.

Also, did Augustine believe in one single doctrine of the Eucharist throughout his life? Because his conflicts in his writing would indicate otherwise.

[Katholikos]

Read The Fourth Cup by Scott Hahn, Ph.D.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/4thCup.htm

In case you're meeting him for the first time, Hahn is a former Presbyterian pastor, Protestant theologian, and biblical scholar -- and, thanks be to God, a Catholic convert.

Be at peace. Nobody can prove the Catholic faith wrong. The Eucharist is not based on an interpretation of the Scriptures, but on the teaching of the Catholic Church, which was instructed by the Apostles before the NT was ever written. The Catholic Church wrote the New Testament, so the NT cannot disagree with the teaching of the Church. It's a logical impossibility.

Peace be to you and to all.

Katholikos

[ryanmeyersmusic]

i don't think icthus was trying to disagree with anything, rather to find out how people felt about this particular passage. there's nothing wrong with asking questions.

there's only been one response to the original question.

[Anna]

Perhaps, ICTHUS, we're not following your train of thought very well.

I don't see anything erroneous about St. Augustine's quote...

When we see "bread" on the altar, the words of consecration, taught to the Church by Christ, change the bread into the Body of Christ.

Same with the chalice, or rather, what is in the chalice.

Are you perhaps taking his statements apart, and not looking at the whole statement in context? I'm really sorry. I wish I could understand where you're coming from.

Pax Christi. <><

[Katholikos]

And the question posed by Icthus was, 'wouldn't Jesus have been lying?' implying that the teaching of the Church is contradicted by the Scriptures.

I'm pointing out that this cannot possibly happen. Agreement with the teaching of the Church was one of the four criterions used to determine the contents of the NT. The Church selected the writings that are in the NT for canonization precisely because they agreed with her teaching!

The problem lies in the interpretation of Scripture [and other writings, such as Augustine's].

There's absolutely nothing wrong with asking questions. Neither is there anything wrong with answering them.

Peace be to you and to all.

Katholikos

[IXpenguin21]

That article mentioned four cups of wine, not three.

Also, did Augustine believe in one single doctrine of the Eucharist throughout his life? Because his conflicts in his writing would indicate otherwise.

point taken, i didn't read over the whole article because i've been to seders and i was saying what i've seen from experience...

my reformed jewish friends and families use 3 cups because of the lack of Birkat Hamazon, though orthodox jews use 4.

and of course augustine changed his stance on topics... his transformed example of how conversion is possible is a huge proponent as to why he is a saint.

[Cure of Ars]

I talked about the Augustin's Quote that you gave here;

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...not+be+consumed