marielapin Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 If you read the article I posted you will see that the Chuch is not trying to say the Inquisition wasn't bad. In fact, it admits to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.SIGGA Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 Vera, This might be something you can say, but I hope it doesn't create any more problems!!! Let them know that The English Reformation was much more bloody than the Spanish Inqisition. If you think about it, it had to be b/c how else can someone turn an entirly fevrent Catholic nation into a loyal Protestant one in just a few years? Queen Elizabeth II killed more priests, nuns,, religious and faithful laity during the first year of her reign to stomp out Catholicism than all years of the Spanish Inquisition combined. I learned this in a Western Civ class I took as a freshman in college. This is a little known fact and goes to show the double standard that Catholics are given in history classes. Don't take what anyone says personally b/c all these persecutions are making you stronger. Continue to be a witness and the Holy Spirit will work through you - He never goes away!!! God Bless :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marielapin Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 Vera, This might be something you can say, but I hope it doesn't create any more problems!!! Let them know that The English Reformation was much more bloody than the Spanish Inqisition. If you think about it, it had to be b/c how else can someone turn an entirly fevrent Catholic nation into a loyal Protestant one in just a few years? Queen Elizabeth II killed more priests, nuns,, religious and faithful laity during the first year of her reign to stomp out Catholicism than all years of the Spanish Inquisition combined. I learned this in a Western Civ class I took as a freshman in college. This is a little known fact and goes to show the double standard that Catholics are given in history classes. Don't take what anyone says personally b/c all these persecutions are making you stronger. Continue to be a witness and the Holy Spirit will work through you - He never goes away!!! God Bless :D This is exactly the point I was trying to make, Thanks ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Just Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 Yeah well what these heretics and haters have caused out in the world is far worse than anything our church has done in the past.These public shcool systems are misleading millions, into believing obserd things, they teach things like evolution, condemn the bible, distribute and teach ids to use contraception, masturbation is normal (sex education). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 contact the CAtholic league for civil rights and the St Thomas Moore Society. St Thomas is a legal center, SUE THE SCHOOL ! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellenita Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 Queen Elizabeth II killed more priests, nuns, religious and faithful laity during the first year of her reign to stomp out Catholicism than all years of the Spanish Inquisition combined. May I gently point out that in fact it was Queen Elizabeth the first and not the second who did this! It does sound as if you are getting a very biased version of the Inquisition which is inevitable if the political climate at the time has not been considered. Spain and England, the two super powers at that time, were very much at war with each other because of their expanding empires and their wish to dominate the world stage. Religion was (and still is to some extent) completely tied up with the state. It is not unreasonable to suggest that there was a considerable amount of negative propaganda put out by both sides which has entered the history books as facts as a result. Interestingly, tudor history taught in England makes very little reference to the terrible persecution of the Catholics under Elizabeth I and when it is mentioned it is usually in the same sentence as the persecution of protestants under her sister Mary who reigned before her. In fact I believe I am guilty of that myself in another thread somewhere! :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.SIGGA Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 May I gently point out that in fact it was Queen Elizabeth the first and not the second who did this! Oooops!!!! I feel really dumb - I promise this is what I meant, I just was typing a little too fast. Thanks for correcting me!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.SIGGA Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 It does sound as if you are getting a very biased version of the Inquisition which is inevitable if the political climate at the time has not been considered. Spain and England, the two super powers at that time, were very much at war with each other because of their expanding empires and their wish to dominate the world stage. Religion was (and still is to some extent) completely tied up with the state. It is not unreasonable to suggest that there was a considerable amount of negative propaganda put out by both sides which has entered the history books as facts as a result. Interestingly, tudor history taught in England makes very little reference to the terrible persecution of the Catholics under Elizabeth I and when it is mentioned it is usually in the same sentence as the persecution of protestants under her sister Mary who reigned before her. In fact I believe I am guilty of that myself in another thread somewhere! Here are some numbers for ya: data for the later periods are offered by Oxford scholar, Kamen: TRIBUNAL PERIOD YEARS RELAXATIONS (burned in person) Ciudad Real 1483-1485 2 52 Toledo 1485-1501 16 250 Toledo 1575-1610 35 11 Toledo 1648-1794 146 8 Saragossa 1485-1502 17 124 Valencia 1484-1530 46 754 Barcelona 1488-1498 10 23 Mallorca 1488-1729 241 120 Canaries 1504-1820 316 11 (from Henry Kamen [1985], page 42) Aproximately 44,000 people were brought before these Inquisition Tribunals, these figs show the number of executions. Count the number of years the Spanish Inquisition was launched and the number of deaths per year. That than means less than two percent were actually put to death. SO anytime any fundamentalist says there were 3 million people burned and tortured, you can refute them with these factual numbers and also point out that there were not that many Spanish citizens at that time to even kill. Express the fact that the Inquisition was a court system, and since there was a combination of Church and State, breaking certain religious laws were also linked to breaking civil laws and it was the STATE that put people to death, not the Church. Even the great Jesuit founder St. Ignatius Loyola was summoned by the Inquisition a couple times - it wasn't always for being a 'Martin Luther;' there were many other laws at the time although hollywood only shows Protestants getting tried in movies. It's kinda like when we go to court for traffic tickets; sometimes and there is a fine to pay - we wouldn't get the penalty of someone who commited first degree murder right? Also 160,000 Jews and many more Muslims were deported, not killed. Here are the Catholic martyrs of the English Reformation that are officially recognized by the Church. Here we have fact that all these people were killed simply b/c they wanted to celebrate mass and harbored Jesuit priests - all no violent offenses. There were so many more that were not members of the royal family and nobility and the clergy that will remain only known to God: English Martyrs God Bless :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.SIGGA Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 Maybe this will be easier to read : Ciudad Real Tribunal: 1483-1485, lasted 2 yrs, 52 dead Toledo Tribunal: 1485-1501, lasted 16 yrs, 250 dead ToledoTribunal: 1575-1610, lasted 35 years, 11 dead Toledo Tribunal:1648-1794, lasted 46yrs, 8 dead Saragossa Tribunal: 1485-1502, lasted 17yrs, 124 dead Valencia Tribunal: 1484-1530, lasted 46yrs, 754 dead Barcelona Tribunal 1488-1498, lasted 10yrs, 23 dead Mallorca Tribunal 1488-1729, lasted 241yrs, 120 dead Canaries Tibunal: 1504-1820, lasted 316 yrs, 11 dead I'm still looking for figs soley on the exact numbers from Elizabeth I's reign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeraMaria Posted October 25, 2003 Author Share Posted October 25, 2003 contact the CAtholic league for civil rights and the St Thomas Moore Society. St Thomas is a legal center, SUE THE SCHOOL ! I WISH! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 Actually I am not kidding. A letter threatening to investigate a teacher can go a long way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeraMaria Posted October 25, 2003 Author Share Posted October 25, 2003 Wow, THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU marielapin and M.SIGGA, you have no idea how much that helped!!! In our history books (for public school), and pretty much every where else, for example, it says that Queen Mary (Tudor) killed more Protestants than Queen Elizabeth killed Catholics. "Bloody" mary actually killed about 200. Queen Elizabeth is described as "a welcome change after "Bloody" Mary. She was the first monarch in Europe to have religious tolerance in her country, and she allowed both Catholics and Protestants to worship freely, and there was a welcome period of peace" or something similar. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Y'all rock!! God Bless, vera Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 25, 2003 Share Posted October 25, 2003 someone mentioned it still being wrong even though it's comparative here'z my 2 cents about that if we lived in the time of the inquisition and said, well, let's keep it up cuz compared to the protestants we've got a fair court system! then that would be wrong however, in looking at history, if u see something comparitively more fair than everything around it, it should be seen as a step toward progress. therefore, if we could've changed it, since morality is not relative, we should have changed it to have less of an absolute error instead of just a low relative error. but now that we can't change it, we can at least take something good out of the fact that we had a low relative error which was a step higher to eventually a low absolute error. (ahahaha physics class has messed up my vocabulary! im sure there's a normal way of saying that.) anywayz, i heard from that guy who wrote "Triumph, the 2000 Year History of the Catholic Church" that most ppl killed by the inquisition weren't killed solely for being heretics, but for committing crimes because of their heresies. for example, they had the heresy that abortion was illegal, they were only put to death if they had actually killed their baby. if they just said "abortion is good" they were prolly just put in prison. for smaller heresies, some people just got penance! anyway, ppl shouldn't be put in prison 4 heresies, but it was more fair than the rest at that point in history, and thus was from a historical point of view, a step in the right direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeraMaria Posted October 25, 2003 Author Share Posted October 25, 2003 Thanks Aloysius! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeraMaria Posted October 25, 2003 Author Share Posted October 25, 2003 and bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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