Iraq War

[Socrates]

[quote name='rufiokicks' date='Feb 9 2005, 03:15 PM'] Delta, I know this is a little late but I'd like to point out to you that terrorism is created everywhere and targeted at everyone. Why aren't we doing anything about American terrorists? These people are hurting our own nation. I'm not saying I disagree with you, but a war on terrorism is a bit of a paradox. It's almost like bombing abortion clinics. Killing for life is like having sex for virginity. We can free a nation from an unjust ruler without bombing and killing the innocent. 9/11 suddenly made us focus on this issue, why weren't we worried about protecting our people before? Remember the Uni-bomber? That was a only a few years ago. Where were the troops then? [/quote]
Attempts to take out Saddam Hussein without war have tried and failed. Civilians are not a military target by the U.S. in this war (though no doubt there have been regrettable mistakes made).

From a purely cynical standpoint, it would have been much better PR for Bush if he could have removed Saddam from power and put in someone else with no bloodshed.

The Unabomber was caught and punished. He was not being supported by a government or nation.

This is not to say that all actions in the "War on Terrorism" have been good or necessary, but merely to say that your analysis is grossly oversimplistic.

[rufiokicks]

Socrates, I agree with you, but Saddam Hussein and Al-Quida isn't supported by an entire nation either. It's select people. Not everyone in America supports Bush, not everyone in Iraq supports Hussein. But, vocalizing that is suicide. I agree that the intentions of our war is just, but not all the ends are justified by the means. Sometimes I think we're trying too hard to be the hero and we end up neglecting our own people to help others.

[Jaime]

Iloveyou JPII

You said
[quote]Going into the war, there most definitely were serious prospects of success. Although many may argue if that in fact has happened, that is not what is required here. I would argue though, that the U.S. has been successful in Iraq.[/quote]

The US was successful in Iraq during the Gulf war. However we did not invade Baghdad and overthrow Saddam because George Sr could not come up with a comprehensive exit strategy. The success or failure of this war is dependent on the same thing; a good exit strategy. That is something that seems to have been overlooked. I think this is the most critical argument against this war being a just war.

Also for a war to be just there has to be "comparative justice" and "right reason" . The right reason was supposed to be the protection of US citizens from WMD and terrorism. Neither of these were proven. While its absolutely true that Saddam was a rapist, murderer and overall butthead, we have about 50 dictators that could line up before him.

Hey this is my first post around these parts... how'd I do?

Edited February 10, 2005 by jaime

[crusader1234]

I disagree with you, but it was a good first post. As a new phatmasser, your opinions will invariably change in one direction or another.... but I like your style.

[MichaelFilo]

Just dandy. Welcome to Phatmass.

Saddam a butthead, yes, if we are going to throw around comments like that, sure. A rapist, no. His sons, maybe, him, never. Murder, no. He's the leader of a country, and all those under his rule are his subjects. He techinically has the last call in protecting the State. However, it's true, he didn't do it all with that spirit in mind. May God have mercy on his soul and the Kurds too.

The war is simply not just on the grounds one principal. Our cause was to not remove a dictator but to destroy weapons of mass destruction and dissarm a potential world threat. Well, they took Saddam away. I won't say he's a world threat though. My dad being a translator for the US, I've come around some information that probably shouldn't have been told to me, but I won't share it witha nyone else. Let me just say, he was interested in weapons, but not specifically WMDs. The point is though, that we went in for one reason, and we didn't find our reason. Our going in there is no longer justified. Even if going in there did something, although I bite my lip when I say it, good (free a people from one dictator to instead switch it to anti-US forces that have no love, don't like Christians since they are more radical fundamentalists, and aren't even Iraqi), our initial reasons werne't justified. The war can't be justified then.

St. Michael, protector of Christians, protect my family in Iraq against the insurgents who see all Christians as their enemies, and despise those who intrude on Iraqi soil, but in their hate hurt the nation and it's people as well.

God bless,
Mikey

[crusader1234]

Good post, although I'm pretty much 100 percent sure that the rape allegations (at least to his sons) are true.

[MC Just]

tried posting a link.but the link no longer works.

Edited February 11, 2005 by MC Just

[Phatmasser777]

Unjust. Illegal. Terrorism. Imperialism.

I hope the Resistence bleeds the American Economy dry in iraq (just as the [i]Islamic Jihad Army[/i] 'Communique #9 Video (in English) tell us they will.

Give the US a good lesson.

The More US 'soldiers' that die, the weaker and weaker the populations patience, and support for the war on 'terror' (*cough* Islam/Oil/Empires *cough*), just like what has happened in the UK, with the IRA's war against British/Loyalist imperialism/colonialism.

Up the 'RA!
Up the Resistence!

[save ferris 101]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Jan 26 2005, 08:50 PM'] I'm so sick of hearing people complaining about how bush is murdering all of "our boys".

Hello, there have been worse wars,even a big ol' pointless war(vietnam), where thousands upon thousands of our boys died, nothing compared to the statistics in this war.

Many of the other wars were led by liberal democrats, were they not? So why the complaining about this? When it doesnt even come close to the others?

I believe IronMonk has proved this stance over and over... Oh and I also believe our boys "chose" to go to war..That's why people join the army, right?

Sadam Hussein is out of Power and a new Government is getting started..What is so wrong with that?

Liberal Democrats,upholding abortion need to stop pointing the finger at Bush, because they are repsonsible for the killing of millions of innocent little babies. [/quote]
Just because there have been more pointless wars than this one, doesn't mean that this one isn't pointless. Also, casualties has no bearing on that either.

Why does it matter why they are complaining, as long as the complaints have merit? Just because they made mistakes before, doesn't meant that they can't point out mistakes now, or at least what they see as mistakes.

Also, again, just because the Army is a volunteer army, but barely that now, doesn't meant that it is good and it doesn't justify it. In fact, it means nothing, so I have no idea why you even said that.

What is so wrong with that? Last time I checked, the ends did not justify the means.

And, once again, just because they are wrong on a very important issue, does not mean that they can't be right on anything, or have a right to voice an opinion on anything. Also, what party a person is has absolutely nothing to do with the nature of the war!!!

[argent_paladin]

[quote name='Phatmasser777' date='Feb 19 2005, 05:36 AM'] Unjust. Illegal. Terrorism. Imperialism.

I hope the Resistence bleeds the American Economy dry in iraq (just as the [i]Islamic Jihad Army[/i] 'Communique #9 Video (in English) tell us they will.

Give the US a good lesson.

The More US 'soldiers' that die, the weaker and weaker the populations patience, and support for the war on 'terror' (*cough* Islam/Oil/Empires *cough*), just like what has happened in the UK, with the IRA's war against British/Loyalist imperialism/colonialism.

Up the 'RA!
Up the Resistence! [/quote]
Wow, that had to be one of the most detestable, sickening, offensive posts I have ever seen. And I live in Berkeley. So, you are on record as saying that the end (teaching the US a "good lesson") justifies the means (US soldiers dying)? That is amoral and repulsive. And further, you would see the destruction of America (bleed the economy dry) just so we wouldn't intervene in other countries. Even though our intervention has produced, modern Germany, Japan, South Korea, free Eastern Europe, etc and our lack of intervention has produced North Korea, Africa, most of the Middle East, etc.
Do you even know what imperialism means? An imperialist is an agent of an empire, which is composed of various kingdoms or vassal states. Do you really think that America is an empire? What vassal states does it command? Do you really think that Bush wants to headache of running Iraq forever? France is more of an empire, since it constantly intervenes with its former colonies, like Ivory Coast.
And so you think that the UK has been "cured" if imperialism? Then why were they our biggest allies in Iraq? Apparently your strategy didn't work with them. This is not a war on Islam. We are not fighting the majority of Muslim countries and indeed there are more muslims for us in Iraq than against us. We are not fighting for oil, we controlled the oil fields in Kuwait and southern Iraq in 1991 but returned them. If we wanted oil, we could just drill the Arctic, or have spent the $300 billion we spent on the war on buying oil. Americans are far stronger than you suppose, and far nobler. I am glad that there are so few cowards, traitors and hypocrites like you in this country (though far too many for my tastes). The resistance is againt democracy, against freedom, against human rights, and kills far more Iraqis that American's do. Afghanistan showed the rightness of our cause and five years from now Iraq will too. And you probably will try to pretend you were for the Iraqi people. I pray that your stony heart will soften and that your wish of more death and destruction, more misery and suffering doesn't come true. It is ironic that a "war-monger" like me prays for peace every day, while a "peace activist" like you only wishes for death, destruction and massive suffering.

[JP2Iloveyou]

[quote name='argent_paladin' date='Feb 19 2005, 08:51 PM'] Wow, that had to be one of the most detestable, sickening, offensive posts I have ever seen. And I live in Berkeley. So, you are on record as saying that the end (teaching the US a "good lesson") justifies the means (US soldiers dying)? That is amoral and repulsive. And further, you would see the destruction of America (bleed the economy dry) just so we wouldn't intervene in other countries. Even though our intervention has produced, modern Germany, Japan, South Korea, free Eastern Europe, etc and our lack of intervention has produced North Korea, Africa, most of the Middle East, etc.
Do you even know what imperialism means? An imperialist is an agent of an empire, which is composed of various kingdoms or vassal states. Do you really think that America is an empire? What vassal states does it command? Do you really think that Bush wants to headache of running Iraq forever? France is more of an empire, since it constantly intervenes with its former colonies, like Ivory Coast.
And so you think that the UK has been "cured" if imperialism? Then why were they our biggest allies in Iraq? Apparently your strategy didn't work with them. This is not a war on Islam. We are not fighting the majority of Muslim countries and indeed there are more muslims for us in Iraq than against us. We are not fighting for oil, we controlled the oil fields in Kuwait and southern Iraq in 1991 but returned them. If we wanted oil, we could just drill the Arctic, or have spent the $300 billion we spent on the war on buying oil. Americans are far stronger than you suppose, and far nobler. I am glad that there are so few cowards, traitors and hypocrites like you in this country (though far too many for my tastes). The resistance is againt democracy, against freedom, against human rights, and kills far more Iraqis that American's do. Afghanistan showed the rightness of our cause and five years from now Iraq will too. And you probably will try to pretend you were for the Iraqi people. I pray that your stony heart will soften and that your wish of more death and destruction, more misery and suffering doesn't come true. It is ironic that a "war-monger" like me prays for peace every day, while a "peace activist" like you only wishes for death, destruction and massive suffering. [/quote]
I couldn't have said it better myself.

Even though I started this thread, I haven't followed it, since I've been very busy with school and all. Anyway, this whole notion that Americans are only after oil, want to kill all Muslims, want to take over the world, and are at fault for everything is just ridiculous. I for one am sick and tired of it.

As you rightly pointed out, it was the Americans who helped rebuild Japan after winning the war they started with us. It was the Americans who helped make Germany a modern economic power after driving out Nazism and ending the Holocaust. How many people forget that it was the ultra left-wing Soviet Communists that were in control of East Germany before the United States and Ronald Reagan demanded that the Berlin Wall be torn down? When Communism, which has formally been condemned by Popes Leo XIII, Pius XII, and John Paul II among others, was spreading throughout Asia, who came to the rescue at the cost of thousands of their own citizens' lives? It was none other than the United States of America. Who stood up to the Soviets, world terrorism, and Fascism? That would also be the United States of America. When innocent Afghani women were being mistreated and terrorists were overrunning that country, who intervened? Again, that is the United States. Finally, and this is graphic, so please, if you do not want to read this, do not scroll down futher...




























































...when Saddam Hussein was randomly killing his political enemies, slowly dismembering children in front of their parents, raping women, throwing people off of buildings, putting people into tree shredders, drowing people in acid, hanging people by their writsts from ceilings, hanging people spinning from ceiling fans, hanging people upside down, using electric shock therapy, castrating people, shocking men on their testicles and women on their breasts and vaginal areas, randomly shooting people whenever he wanted, etc, etc, etc, who came to the rescue? It was the United States.















Someone please, for the love of everything holy, tell me, why you are so quick to point out what has gone wrong in Iraq, the number of dead, the destruction, and everything else, yet refuse to see the harm done by Saddam in the first place? Why do you ignore the millions of people who went out and voted, knowing they were risking their lives to do so? Do you realize that Iraq had a larger percentage of people vote in their national elections that we did here in the United States?

Honestly, I am so sick and tired of you hate America types. Heck, why don't you go live in Cuba? They're about as left-wing as you can get. There's enough Cubans fleeing to the United States seeking refuge from that leftist murderer Castro that I'm sure he would welcome some reciprocity. The nice thing about the borders of the U.S. is that they go both ways. We let people in and we let people out. As far as I'm concerned, if you hate America so much, just leave! And don't let the door hit ya' where the good Lord split ya'!

[crusader1234]

If I was a moderator I'd fill this thread with red 'edit' tape and pretend these last few posts never happened.

[Guest Aluigi]

[quote name='Phatmasser777' date='Feb 19 2005, 05:36 AM'] Unjust. Illegal. Terrorism. Imperialism.

I hope the Resistence bleeds the American Economy dry in iraq (just as the [i]Islamic Jihad Army[/i] 'Communique #9 Video (in English) tell us they will.

Give the US a good lesson.

The More US 'soldiers' that die, the weaker and weaker the populations patience, and support for the war on 'terror' (*cough* Islam/Oil/Empires *cough*), just like what has happened in the UK, with the IRA's war against British/Loyalist imperialism/colonialism.

Up the 'RA!
Up the Resistence! [/quote]
The definition of why I've lost hope for the Irish cause. Too many people got caught up in this damnable idea of worldwide revolution et cetera... what ever happened to "the world has freed the rest, now free the best" That's the kind of Irish cause I miss. Anyway, the IRA will be totally gone soon, it's alienated too much of its American financial supporters. Good luck to Sinn Fein though

you're all just hung up on revolutions et cetera. How about the fact that the majority of Iraq doesn't even sympathize with the sunni terrorists? no that doesn't matter, you hate america you don't really support the iraqi people. even if you believed that (to you it's probably some conspiracy and the majority of iraqis really didnt vote or dance in the streets) you wouldn't like it, you want fighting, rebellion, et cetera. I don't believe you really even support the Irish people, you only support some dead german named Karl Marx.

I refuse to even talk to you you terrorist supporting scum. You're a cancer on the Irish people and I wish you wouldn't even support the cause of Ireland, but I take comfort in the fact that you're a loser in America or Canada or something who really has no affect on anything. Youre not only a cancer on the Irish cause, you're a cancer on mankind. If it weren't against my religion I'd be aimin the kemo radiation strait at you. But instead, I'm going to be all about the low level radiation of admonishment on your sorry butt.

And I don't care that this is somewhat ad hominem, sometimes a hominem needs a kick in the hypocritical pants.

Edited February 20, 2005 by Aluigi

[Ash Wednesday]

I never thought action in Iraq the way we went about it was just.

But at this point, we might as well finish what we started. I don't hate my country and I don't think the troops should believe that what they are doing is in vain. I understand what it is Bush is trying to do -- at least his official stance of "spreading democracy" -- but I'm not so sure it's feasable in the middle east. I honestly hope they prove me wrong.

Anybody that knows me personally knows I'm just about impossible to figure out, I can't even figure out myself. One moment I'm an almost-leftist culture jammer and the next I float to "love it or leave it and shut up, pinko..."

[Phatmasser777]

JP2Iloveyou

That is the biggest load of Pro-Americana, Right-Wing, pro-Terrorist BC I've ever heard. LOL You need to read up on countries like Iran, Pakistan, Ecaudor, Nicargua. The US done a great 'job' their.