cmotherofpirl Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 We are born with the tendency to sin, we are not born evil, but we can choose to commit evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 CCC 549 [quote] By freeing some individuals from the earthly evils of hunger, injustice, illness and death, Jesus performed messianic signs. Nevertheless he did not come to abolish all evils here below, but to free men from the gravest slavery, sin, which thwarts them in their vocation as God's sons and causes all forms of human bondage.[/quote] We have to make the statement that man can be evil, based upon CCC 549. Looking at this paragraph, we see that man is freed from evil by the redemptive action of Christ. Therefore, man can be evil. Remember the greatest evil is sin. Cam42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 Not intrinsically, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argent_paladin Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 In a technical sense, nothing can be evil because evil is nothing. More specifically, evil is nothing where there should be something, an absence or privation. It is like blindness, which is not something, so much as an absence of something, in this case, sight. But we wouldn't really say that a rock is blind, because it never had sight in the first place. But the most common analogy of evil is darkness. Darkness is not something. It is the absence of light. If you asked, can a candle flame be dark? The answer is no, because then it would no longer be a candle flame. Similarly, man cannot be evil (if you mean wholly deficient in goodness) or else he would no longer be man, that is, made according to the image and likeness of God. Even Satan is not 100% evil because existence itself is a good and insofar Satan exists, he is good. Well, that's the Thomistic understanding at least... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argent_paladin Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 Cam42: Being freed from evil doesn't imply being evil in the first place, but being under the influence of evil. If one is freed from addiction, or prison, that doesn't mean that one WAS prision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archangel Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 What does it mean to be evil anyways? Is the devil evil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phazzan Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 If men are born good, why does God send unbaptized babies to hell? Babies who are born good, yet through no fault of their own are condemned because of the sin of Adam? Sounds like a paradox to me. Likewise, a child can't be born evil, because he/she hasn't chosen that path. We are born [i]human[/i]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 [quote name='spathariossa' date='Jan 31 2005, 12:49 PM'] God is omnipotent, therefore He can create evil. He just chooses not to. Unless you feel that His being all good prevents Him from having the ability to create evil. In that case, God wouldn't be omnipotent. [/quote] God is omnipotent, but he also is Love, and would do nothing contrary to His nature. Creating evil is contrary to his nature, and sounds very gnostic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argent_paladin Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 You have to correctly define omnipotence. It is not, as you suppose, the power to do anything, but the power to do anything that is logically possible. The classic example is "Can God create a weight so heavy that he cannot lift it?" If he cannot, then he is not omnipotent, but then if he can, then he cannot lift it and is therfore not omnipotent. Similarly, God cannot create a four-sided triangle, because *by definition* a triangle is three-sided. If he did make one, it would then be a square. So, God cannot create evil, because, as I posted before, evil is not something, but an absence. But also, God is Absolute Good and evil cannot come from Absolute Good. Well, if unbaptized babies go to hell and *aren't* evil then that would seem to be a divine injustice. If they go to heaven, it would seem to be contrary to Paul's "All have sinned" statement and means that a substantial portion of humanity doesn't need Christ's redemptive act on the Cross. Which do you prefer? That is why the Catholic understanding of Original Sin is so helpful. And saying that we are "born human" is no help because only humans are good or evil anyway (well angels too) because only rational agents can be good or evil. If you say that a person is human, you still have to ask the question, "Good human or evil human?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phazzan Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 [quote name='argent_paladin' date='Feb 2 2005, 12:14 AM'] Well, if unbaptized babies go to hell and *aren't* evil then that would seem to be a divine injustice. If they go to heaven, it would seem to be contrary to Paul's "All have sinned" statement and means that a substantial portion of humanity doesn't need Christ's redemptive act on the Cross. Which do you prefer? That is why the Catholic understanding of Original Sin is so helpful. [/quote] Despite babies having Original Sin, they have not chosen to sin through their own accord, therefore they cannot be held accountable for their own existence, since they neither choose or agree to this life. Furthermore, I don't understand how you can condemn someone on the account of another person's sin. A common defence is "Adam lost it all", meaning we lost perfection and the grace that flows from it, but how does that equate to the entirety of humanity deserving condemnation on the basis of that one sin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q the Ninja Posted February 2, 2005 Author Share Posted February 2, 2005 [quote name='spathariossa' date='Jan 31 2005, 11:49 AM'] God is omnipotent, therefore He can create evil. He just chooses not to. Unless you feel that His being all good prevents Him from having the ability to create evil. In that case, God wouldn't be omnipotent. [/quote] I am breaking my "fast" to respond real fast by saying that you've forgotten the third and highest form of freedom, authentic freedom, which God follows completely. This means He does nothing contrary to the Good, Summum Bonum, Himself. Evil is contrary to Himself so He couldn't create it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 [quote]Being freed from evil doesn't imply being evil in the first place, but being under the influence of evil. If one is freed from addiction, or prison, that doesn't mean that one WAS prision.[/quote] Argent_Paladin....I didn't say that man was evil in the first place, nor did the question imply it. The question was.....Can man be evil? The answer is yes. Why is the answer yes? Raphael has it partly....man is not intrinsically evil, but his actions do define him. There are three ideas of evil, right? 1. Metaphysical evil (malum naturæ). 2. Moral evil (culpæ). 3. Physical evil (paenæ). Ok, insofar as there are these three kinds of evil and man participates to a greater or lesser degree in these at varying times, he can in fact be evil. While man is not intrinsically evil, as Aquinas asserts and I agree, culpae or sin can make man evil. For what is evil, by definition? It is the sum of the opposition to the Good. It is not merely an absence of good, as in darkness is absence of light, but rather it is an action of the will which opposes that which is Good. What is the Good? The Good, in the sense that I speak, is God. So if a man opposes God through sin, he is evil, until he renounces that which makes him evil and returns to the Good. This is looking at it from the second idea of evil only. Culpae (moral evil). To get into the first and the third is probably best left to another thread and most likely a much longer conversation. But the question at hand is "Can man be evil?" By participating in sin, yes he can be evil. He becomes culpable. He participates in culpae. Depending on the severity of the culpae....a man can be classified as evil.....a complete turning away from God (i.e. mortal sin). Augustine defines this as, "Dictum vel factum vel concupitum contra legem æternam." With the 'dicutm vel factum vel concupitum' being the material element and the 'contra legem aeternam' being the human element. This can make a creation of several things, "reatus pænæ," "reatus culpæ." Notice what are parts of sin.....evil that which man will participate in. The penalty to be undergone in the future life is divided into the pain of loss (pæna damni) and the pain of sense (pæna sensus). Without the acknowledgment that the present moral state of man is not that in which God created him, that his powers are weakened; that he has a supernatural end to attain, which is impossible of attainment by his own unaided efforts, without grace there being no proportion between the end and the means; that the world, the flesh, and the devil are in reality active agents fighting against him and leading him to serve them instead of God, sin cannot be understood. (Catholic Encyclopedia c.1910) So, even in this understanding, man can be evil. Not intrinsically, but he can be evil, if he chooses to be. Cam42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rufiokicks Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 We can all do evil, and essentially we all do. It's called sin. But being children of God we can never be fully evil. Man is created good, it's our own free will that turns us to evil deeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rufiokicks Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 We can all do evil, and essentially we all do. It's called sin. But being children of God we can never be fully evil. Man is created good, it's our own free will that turns us to evil deeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rufiokicks Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 We can all do evil, and essentially we all do. It's called sin. But being children of God we can never be fully evil. Man is created good, it's our own free will that turns us to evil deeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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