Good Friday Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 A simple question: If a gay Catholic does not believe Church teaching regarding homosexuality but chooses to live the life that the Church calls him to out of sheer obedience alone, is that sufficient? Must he [i]believe[/i], or must he only [i]do[/i]? I think my problem is not so much that I can't [i]do[/i] it, as much as I can't [i]believe[/i] it. If I can quietly (that is, privately) disagree while still obeying, would that be workable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 I think its a starting point. I have come to accept Church teachings by obeying them before I could understand or agree with them. I didn't think God was asking for my opinon just my obedience. The more I obeyed them the more I understood them and the easier they were to practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy the Ninja Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 I believe it IS sufficient to disagree privately (without causing scandal) and still obey. The obeying is the key. I know people who completely disagree with many of our Church leaders (bishops, cardinals, the Pope himself) and they are still worthy of being considered excellent Catholics (and people) because they are obedient to the Magistrium, the Pope, their cardinals, their bishops and their priests. Disagreement does not automatically disqualify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pio Nono Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 JMJ 1/22 - St. Vincent [quote]"It is useless to play off orthopraxis against orthodoxy: Christianity is inseparably both." [i]-Pope John Paul II,[/i]Catechesi Tradendae[i] 22[/i].[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Friday Posted January 22, 2005 Author Share Posted January 22, 2005 Great. So the Pope would have me do . . . what, exactly? Get a lobotomy? I mean really, how does the Pope's quote help me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 [quote name='Good Friday' date='Jan 22 2005, 02:10 PM'] Great. So the Pope would have me do . . . what, exactly? Get a lobotomy? I mean really, how does the Pope's quote help me? [/quote] Start with obeying the Church. Remember, prior to the 14th century or so nobody really cared in Catholicism about intent vs action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Orthopraxis seems more noble to me than being Orthodox in belief and living like a pagan. I think that might be what His Holiness was saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q the Ninja Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Actually, by doing the action you're talking about, you would be in the right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 (edited) [i]The Holy Gospel according to Saint Matthew, Chapter XXI, Verses xxviii-xxxi[/i] But what think you? A certain man had two sons: and coming to the first, he said: Son, go work to day in my vineyard. And he answering, said: I will not. But afterwards, being moved with repentance, he went. And coming to the other, he said in like manner. And he answering said: I go, Sir. And he went not. Which of the two did the father’s will? They say to him: [b]The first[/b]. Jesus saith to them: Amen I say to you that the publicans and the harlots shall go into the kingdom of God before you [you- the pharisees who were like the second]. Edited January 22, 2005 by Aluigi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Friday Posted January 23, 2005 Author Share Posted January 23, 2005 So the consensus (with the exception of Pio Nono) seems to be that I could, in fact, practice the teaching of the Church without actually agreeing with it, and still be "okay." Of course I realize that none of you think this is the [b]ideal[/b] situation, but human beings rarely work in ideals. Perhaps I should believe and do, but I don't; the best I can maybe do is to do what the Church asks, even if I don't believe in the credibility of what she's asking. Mind you, I'm not saying that I [b]am[/b] going to do this, only that I'm considering it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 (edited) it's definitely better than believing and not practicing. cmom's right about it being a good first step, ideally it wouldn't be the only step but you're right, human beings don't work in ideals. btw, I found your latest blog entry quite well-written and interesting. I don't think anyone on PhatMass said that after theosis it would turn hetero (i could have missed that part, i don't know). the neither marry nor be married thing makes more sense to me, and we refer to Joseph as Mary's spouse simply because relationships from earth still exist in heaven, they're simply not the same. Joseph and Mary are not living in a married state, but they would still be in relation to each other be called husband and wife in the same way a father and son are still father and son in heaven even though the father is no longer teaching and raising the son or any of that. Edited January 23, 2005 by Aluigi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 [quote name='Good Friday' date='Jan 22 2005, 09:19 PM'] So the consensus (with the exception of Pio Nono) seems to be that I could, in fact, practice the teaching of the Church without actually agreeing with it, and still be "okay." Of course I realize that none of you think this is the [b]ideal[/b] situation, but human beings rarely work in ideals. Perhaps I should believe and do, but I don't; the best I can maybe do is to do what the Church asks, even if I don't believe in the credibility of what she's asking. Mind you, I'm not saying that I [b]am[/b] going to do this, only that I'm considering it. [/quote] Like I said, the concept of intent vs action is relatively new within the Church - only 500-700 years old. And as Aluigi pointed out, obedience is what Jesus wanted. I myself am not sure have the time that prayer works or that God even exists. But I know to keep at it despite my doubts, and most of the time I don't find myself doubting anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pio Nono Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 JMJ 1/23 - Third Sunday Don't blame me - it's what the Holy Father asserts. I simply give a message that's not my own (hate the game, not the player). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jezic Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 [quote]hate the game, not the player[/quote] And i say to you love your enemy .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 No one may withhold assent to a doctrine taught as definitive by either the Ordinary or the Extraordinary Magisterium, nor may he dissent from those things proposed by the Authentic Magisterium, rather, he must give a submission of mind and will to those teachings, even if they are not proposed as definitive. Orthodoxy and orthopraxy are inseparably bound together. God bless, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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