curtins Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 yeah you know i dont know much about this whole transgender thing but i would think its a bit like homosexuality- so its like if you control it its all good. you know like ppl say homosexuals are bad just cuz they are homosexual- thats rong whats bad is the act of acting upon liking the same sex. but chastity is all good so yeah. im not against transgenders or gays or what ever im against any sins that those people AND heterosexuals commit- heck what am i saying im against all sins but you guys get my point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Friday Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 [quote name='Sinner']Our Father who art in heaven........... female? hmmmmmm[/quote] It's just not that simple. As Hyper said, there are numerous references to God in the Old Testament using feminine pronouns and terms. For instance, Holy Sophia (Wisdom) is referred to in various books of the Old Testament as feminine. She is referred to as feminine in Proverbs, Sirach and Wisdom. Theologians agree that Holy Sophia is to be identified with God; some believe that She is to be identified with the Second Person of the Trinity, and some believe that She is to be identified with the Third Person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit. I tend to go with the latter interpretation. In the first creation story of Genesis, God is called by the name Elohim -- this is a feminine plural name. The connotation is that God, in the creation of all that is seen and unseen, is acting in a way that is more feminine than masculine -- and that all three Persons of the Trinity have feminine qualities (hence the use of the plural). In the book of Genesis and throughout the Old Testament, the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit is called [i]Ruach[/i] -- a feminine noun that means "spirit," "breath" or "wind." In Genesis, the Holy Spirit is referred to as [i]Ruach Elohim[/i] -- the Spirit of God, the Spirit (feminine singular) of God (feminine plural). If we were to speak of the Holy Spirit in Hebrew today, we would call Her [i]Ruach haChodesh[/i], which means "Holy Spirit" in Hebrew. The noun is still feminine. In the New Testament, the word used for Spirit ([i]pneuma[/i]) is gender neutral. This is strong evidence that the Holy Spirit has strongly feminine characteristics. In Jewish tradition, the Presence of God, which dwelled in the Temple and now (according to the Jews) dwells with the Jews in diaspora, is called the [i]Shekinah[/i]. The [i]Shekinah[/i] is perceived as feminine. The [i]Shekinah's[/i] connection to the Holy Spirit is clear -- and many believe that the Jewish belief in [i]Shekinah[/i] is an early, imperfect belief in the Holy Spirit. Of course, the beliefs are not identical. The Jews believe that the [i]Shekinah[/i] is an emanation of God, not a Divine Person. Still, it can't be disputed that Jewish beliefs in [i]Shekinah[/i] formed and influenced Christian belief in [i]Ruach haChodesh[/i]. In the New Testament, while most of Jesus' parables speak of God as Father, there are also parables which speak of God in feminine characteristics. Jesus even speaks of Himself as wanting to care for Jerusalem as a mother cares for her young -- He speaks of Himself in feminine terms. As Hyper also mentioned, various saints and mystics have referred to God in feminine terms and as Mother -- St. Hildegard of Bingen and Bl. Julian of Norwich are only a couple of examples. Even Pope John Paul I and Pope John Paul II have referred to God as Mother. A September 10, 1999 article by Richard Owen in [i]The Times, London[/i] mentioned that Pope John Paul I admonished pilgrims in 1978 that God is "the Father, but is also the Mother." In 1999, during his General Audience, Pope John Paul II said: [quote]The hands of God hold us up, they hold us tight, they give us strength. But at the same time they give us comfort, they console and caress us. They are the hands of a father and a mother at the same time. (Note: Pope John Paul II made these comments during his [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_08091999_en.html"]General Audience[/url] of September 8, 1999. He went on to discuss this at great length).[/quote] In my view, then, there is nothing wrong with speaking of God in feminine terms. I chose to speak of God in masculine and feminine terms interchangeably in this thread in deference to our transgendered brothers and sisters, to remind them that God is, in a sense, [i]transgendered[/i] -- God transcends gender and is neither male nor female, while also having characteristics of both masculinity and femininity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 I always considered God as being Complete-Gendered, which means He is complete and is MORE than being male and female, which is why we are complete in Him. Using gendered speech with discussing I Am Who Am is just human convenience because we are [b]so[/b] not God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Since Jesus called God his Father, I think most of us will still go by His perference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Friday Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 [quote name='cmotherofpirl']Since Jesus called God his Father, I think most of us will still go by His perference.[/quote] As will I, in most cases. I wasn't arguing that anyone [b]should[/b] refer to God in feminine terms, only that it can be legitimately done. The norm for Christians is God as Father, and I don't dispute that, nor do I dispute the use of masculine terms in liturgy and prayer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 If you wanna talk about it then read this first: [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=27457"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=27457[/url] If not, then all the better. Ever notice how the people calling it wrong are also the ones lacking a reasonable command of the English language? Go figure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 [quote name='curtins' date='Jan 22 2005, 12:36 AM'] yeah you know i dont know much about this whole transgender thing but i would think its a bit like homosexuality- so its like if you control it its all good. you know like ppl say homosexuals are bad just cuz they are homosexual- thats rong whats bad is the act of acting upon liking the same sex. but chastity is all good so yeah. im not against transgenders or gays or what ever im against any sins that those people AND heterosexuals commit- heck what am i saying im against all sins but you guys get my point [/quote] [quote]yeah you know i dont know much about this whole transgender thing [/quote] That's the point where I stop listening to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathurian Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Oh dear. Thin ice, everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 [quote name='Cathurian' date='Jan 22 2005, 04:14 PM'] Oh dear. Thin ice, everybody. [/quote] Thats what I was thinking.... be forewarned people, I have my finger hovering over the "close this thread" button if I think its getting ugly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jan 22 2005, 09:55 AM'] Since Jesus called God his Father, I think most of us will still go by His perference. [/quote] Amen to that! Calling God "Father" and using masculine terms to decribe Him is not arbitrary. God has no body of course, but when He took on a human nature it was Male. Jesus was a man who called God the Father His Father. While God is a spirit with no body, masculinity and fatherhood are reflections of His Divine Fatherhood. God is not feminine. Mary is our Mother. The Church is our mother. God is Our Father. Only liberal new-age dissenters claim otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 Nathan is absolutely right, the issue isn't ith calling Him "Her". The issue is with what is being expressed by calling Him "Her." I don't see how it's bad unless one intends to thereby beny God's Fatherhood, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 Jesus did not have two mommies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 Is the Holy Father a liberal New Ager? Was Saint Hildegard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 Socrates! I love you! you're hereby added to my "My heroes" list. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 [quote name='hyperdulia again' date='Jan 22 2005, 08:08 PM'] Socrates! I love you! you're hereby added to my "My heroes" list. lol [/quote] Thanks, Hyper! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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