Good Friday Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 All righty then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 (edited) [quote name='jezic' date='Jan 22 2005, 12:11 AM'] I don't think that being gay (or anything else for that matter) is a disorder or a disease as some would call it. It is something that God has given you, a unique path that is hidden from the eyes of the wise. I just pray that you will find your way. [/quote] A moral disorder is not a gift from God! It may be an evil that God allows to exist, but it is not something God positively causes. The Church specifically teaches that homosexual attraction is intrinsically disordered and is not something neutral or benign. This "path from God" stuff is contrary to Catholic theology. God does not make homosexuals any more than he makes serial killers, rapists, zoophiles, or pedophiles! Edited January 23, 2005 by Socrates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 why do you insist on posting like that... think before you post, and stop at the term "pedophile" there is no need to clarify vulgarly it can be considered a gift insomuch as every cross, suffering, and temptation is a gift from God in order to strengthen the person by it. In resisting the temptation you become stronger, and that is wherein lies the "gift" of the disordered inclination. No one is required to go to a psychologist or anything over this, but they are required to resist and live chastely. Obsessing over "take this away" is not the healthy path usually. Accepting the cross and living chastely is a good way, and no one with the disordered inclination is expected to do any more or less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jan 22 2005, 03:40 PM'] The fact that I won't cave in and say what is [i]politically correct[/i] may be offensive to some people, but that really is beside the point. Compassion cannot be separated from the truth. I refuse to identify a man with any objectively disordered desire, and of course that includes the homosexual inclination; in other words, I refuse to reduce a man to concupiscence. Concupiscence has no [i]being[/i], rather it is a lack of being, i.e., it is a disorder of the will. Now this may be hard for some people to grasp in our society at the present time, but it is the constant teaching of the Church, reaffirmed as such at the Council of Trent in opposition to the Reformers. As Trent declared: ". . . this holy Synod confesses and perceives that there remains in the baptized [i]concupiscence of an inclination[/i], although this is left to be wrestled with, it cannot harm those who do not consent, [i]but manfully resist by the grace of Jesus Christ[/i]. Nay, indeed, 'he who shall have striven lawfully, shall be crowned' (2 Tim. 2:5). This concupiscence, which at times the Apostle calls sin (Rom. 6:12) the holy Synod declares that the Catholic Church has never understood to be called sin, as truly and properly sin in those born again, [i]but because it is from sin and inclines to sin[/i]. But if anyone is of the contrary opinion, let him be anathema." [Trent, [u]Decree on Original Sin[/u], no. 5] Grace is the medicine of the soul, and a man who has been justified by the gift of God's grace in Christ Jesus must use the various graces given to him in order to resist the disordered inclinations arising from original sin. Therefore, a man must never identify himself with those disordered inclinations, whatever they may be; rather, he must identify himself with Christ the Lord, who frees him from slavery to sin and death, and who empowers him to live as he should, resisting the various disordered inclinations affecting his will because of the fall of Adam. God bless, Todd [/quote] Caring for someone's feelings isn't PC the last time I checked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Friday Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 [quote name='Socrates']God does not make homosexuals any more than he makes serial killers, rapists, zoophiles, or pedophiles![/quote] Ah, the classic comparison of homosexuals to society's worst criminals. Now this thread is complete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 GF, I love you. that argument simply isn't gonna work. now all those actions are bad to different degrees and stuff and simply relating them all is just going to make people mad. homosexuality is the most complicated of that list you made, the other stuff is less complicated sinful actions, it doesn't have the big self-identification crises linked to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 (edited) My point is that people have strong inclinations to these other things too. I don't think they are genetically predetermined any more than homosexuality. Genes may play a role in how prone one may be to develop a particular disorder after going through certain circumstances (some people are probably more prone to be killers than others, for example), but no one is "born that way." A predisposition to something does not make it good. Because something "feels good" does not make it right. Edited January 23, 2005 by Socrates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Jan 22 2005, 11:41 PM'] My point is that people have strong inclinations to these other things too. I don't think they are genetically predetermined any more or less than homosexuality. Genes may play a role in how prone one may be to develop a particular disorder after going through certain circumstances (some people are probably more prone to be killers than others, for example), but no one is "born that way." A predisposition to something does not make it good. Because something "feels good" does not make it right. [/quote] We don't know if it is inborn or not. It ultimately doesn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 Temptations are never a gift of God, for God tempts no one; as the Catechism explains in reference to the concluding petition of the Lord's Prayer: "This petition goes to the root of the preceding one, for our sins result from our consenting to temptation; we therefore ask our Father not to 'lead' us into temptation. It is difficult to translate the Greek verb used by a single English word: the Greek means both 'do not allow us to enter into temptation' and 'do not let us yield to temptation.' '[i]God cannot be tempted by evil and he himself tempts no one[/i]'; on the contrary, he wants to set us free from evil. We ask him not to allow us to take the way that leads to sin. We are engaged in the battle 'between flesh and spirit'; this petition implores the Spirit of discernment and strength." [[u]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/u], no. 2846] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 [quote name='spathariossa' date='Jan 22 2005, 06:51 PM'] Caring for someone's feelings isn't PC the last time I checked. [/quote] Telling a man the truth is compassionate, while lying to him in order to minimize the danger associated with embracing a concupiscent desire as an identifying personal characteristic simply harms him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jan 23 2005, 12:40 AM'] Telling a man the truth is compassionate, while lying to him in order to minimize the danger associated with embracing a concupiscent desire as an identifying personal characteristic simply harms him. [/quote] I don't recall advocating the latter course of action. But there are different methods of telling somebody something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 [quote name='spathariossa' date='Jan 22 2005, 10:44 PM'] I don't recall advocating the latter course of action. But there are different methods of telling somebody something. [/quote] Yes, there are different methods, and my approach is to try and explain the doctrine of the Church as clearly as possible. In other words, I avoid equivocal language in order to be sure that I don't contribute to a person embracing a negation as if it could be an identifying characteristic of his personality. God bless, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jan 23 2005, 12:49 AM'] Yes, there are different methods, and my approach is to try and explain the doctrine of the Church as clearly as possible. In other words, I avoid equivocal language in order to be sure that I don't contribute to a person embracing a negation as if it could be an identifying characteristic of his personality. God bless, Todd [/quote] In other words you avoid all subtlety and beat them over the head with the concept like it's a blunt instrument. See? Phrasing can mean the difference between being complimentary and insulting. Edited January 23, 2005 by spathariossa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 [quote name='spathariossa' date='Jan 22 2005, 10:51 PM'] In other words you avoid all subtlety and beat them over the head with the concept like it's a blunt instrument. See? Phrasing can mean the difference between being complimentary and insulting. [/quote] If equivocation is subtlety, then no, I'm not subtle. God bless, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts