homosexual's born homosexual's

[jmjtina]

+JMJ

anything that will lead to sin should be rid of. It's required of us all, isn't it?

Yes, you must [b][u]try.[/u][/b] I think that is the key word and why there is confession. We are required to try and be rid of that which will lead us into sin. Yet, we cannot do it alone. We need God's grace. I think that if some temptations we are prone to will lead us more likely to sin, than shouldn't we want to be rid of them? And pray for grace to be rid of it?

Put any other sin we have in the "homosexual orientation" and we ALL must try to be rid of them. Christ demands it of us. No one said it would be easy. We have Christ's promise that it's as hard as hell. But we also have His promise that he'll help us.

Only I fear that we may want to cling to our sin that we are used to and some are more accepted than others in this society that we live in. In other words, are we willing to fight our own desires?

prayer and perserverance and grace is the only way out. For us all.


As far as knocking Toledo, spartissossa (?) for posting some of the same ol' CCC, alot of peeps read and aren't aware of what the CCC actually states. Just because you know it doesn't mean every reader does. The more CCC quotes we have the better because we have ALOT more young lurkers than you may realize. Besides, didn't Good Friday post the same CCC, yet again?

Pax.

Edited January 22, 2005 by jmjtina

[spathariossa]

[quote name='jmjtina' date='Jan 22 2005, 01:27 PM'] +JMJ

anything that will lead to sin should be rid of. It's required of us all, isn't it? 

Yes, you must [b][u]try.[/u][/b]  I think that is the key word and why there is confession. We are required to try and be rid of that which will lead us into sin. Yet, we cannot do it alone.  We need God's grace. I think that if some temptations we are prone to will lead us more likely to sin, than shouldn't we want to be rid of them? And pray for grace to be rid of it?

Put any other sin we have in the "homosexual orientation" and we ALL must try to be rid of them. Christ demands it of us. No one said it would be easy.  We have Christ's promise that it's as hard as hell. But we also have His promise that he'll help us.

Only I fear that we may want to cling to our sin that we are used to and some are more accepted than others in this society that we live in.  In other words, are we willing to fight our own desires?

prayer and perserverance and grace is the only way out. For us all.


As far as knocking Toledo, spartissossa (?) for posting some of the same ol' CCC, alot of peeps read and aren't aware of what the CCC actually states.  Just because you know it doesn't mean every reader does.  The more CCC quotes we have the better because we have ALOT more young lurkers than you may realize.  Besides, didn't Good Friday post the same CCC, yet again?

Pax. [/quote]
I specifically said my frustration was not aimed at Toledo.

Did he? Ugh...

Edited January 22, 2005 by spathariossa

[Good Friday]

Why do I INSIST on identifying myself with an objective disorder? Why do you INSIST on treating people like dirt?

The fact is that you people have [b]nothing[/b] from Church teaching that says that homosexual persons (which is the language of the Church -- if you won't condescend to use the language of the Church and would rather have your own private magisterium, that's up to you) must try to be rid of their sexual orientation. I know, because I have read [b]all[/b] of the documents and there is [b]nothing[/b] like that in there.

Apotheoun, I have read the sources you cited in previous threads -- they did not, in any way, say what you're saying. You are simply misrepresenting the teaching of the Church, which is a sin that you will eventually have to account for.

My advice to the people on this phorum is to read the documents of the Church themselves and not listen to these people who claim to be Church Scholars but actually misrepresent what the Church teaches, intentionally.

Edited January 22, 2005 by Good Friday

[spathariossa]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='Jan 22 2005, 02:12 PM'] Why do I INSIST on identifying myself with an objective disorder? Why do you INSIST on treating people like dirt? [/quote]
I love you.

[cmotherofpirl]

Nobody is treating anybody like dirt, and yet you persist in this line.
Give it up.

Your lack of understanding of what he is saying doesn 't mean he is attacking you.

Edited January 22, 2005 by cmotherofpirl

[Good Friday]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl']Your lack of understanding of what he is saying doesn 't mean he is attacking you.[/quote]
I understand perfectly what he's saying, Cheryl. I'm not an idiot because I'm 20. He's saying that because homosexuality is an objective disorder, it does not actually exist. He's also saying that because it is an objective disorder, it should be overcome with the help of God's grace. And he is misrepresenting this as Church teaching, BECAUSE:

[b]What he's saying is not to be found anywhere in the Catechism or in the letters from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and he refuses to show where it is shown, only proving the point that it isn't to be found.[/b]

If it's really as simple as he pretends, and if it really is Church teaching, surely he would be able to find it clearly and manifestly taught somewhere, no?

[spathariossa]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='Jan 22 2005, 02:25 PM'] [quote name='cmotherofpirl']Your lack of understanding of what he is saying doesn 't mean he is attacking you.[/quote]
I understand perfectly what he's saying, Cheryl. I'm not an idiot because I'm 20. He's saying that because homosexuality is an objective disorder, it does not actually exist. He's also saying that because it is an objective disorder, it should be overcome with the help of God's grace. And he is misrepresenting this as Church teaching, BECAUSE:

[b]What he's saying is not to be found anywhere in the Catechism or in the letters from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and he refuses to show where it is shown, only proving the point that it isn't to be found.[/b]

If it's really as simple as he pretends, and if it really is Church teaching, surely he would be able to find it clearly and manifestly taught somewhere, no? [/quote]
I love you.

[jmjtina]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='Jan 22 2005, 02:12 PM'] My advice to the people on this phorum is to read the documents of the Church themselves and not listen to these people who claim to be Church Scholars but actually misrepresent what the Church teaches, intentionally. [/quote]
Just because I read a doctors medical book, doesn't mean I understand it fully.

Todd studies the faith from a very faithful University and tries to help the rest of us understand our faith more, just as his teachers help him, but that is besides the point.

I don't think he's arguing with you, but clarifiying what you seem to not understand. (your not the only one)

He doesn't misrepresent the Church Nate. And you implying that he does makes me wonder about you.

Edited January 22, 2005 by jmjtina

[Good Friday]

[quote name='jmjtina']I don't think he's arguing with you, but clarifiying what you seem to not understand.

He doesn't misrepresent the Church Nate. And you implying that he does makes me wonder about you.[/quote]
When someone asks you why you insist on identifying yourself with an objective disorder, they are officially arguing with you.

And he has not clarified "what I seem not to understand" -- I understand what he's saying, but have asked, again and again, for him to prove his assertion that it is Church teaching. That is, after all, why this is the [b]Debate Table[/b]. People do need to prove that what they're saying here is Church teaching if they're going to claim that it is, and so far he has not, nor has he even tried to. And the fact that he is from some University -- probably Franciscan in Steubenville, which does [b]not[/b] impress me -- is not going to make me accept what he's saying at face value.

Until he proves that what he is saying is Church teaching, I contend that he is misrepresenting the Church.

[cmotherofpirl]

He already has, several times. You just don't get it.

[Good Friday]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl']He already has, several times. You just don't get it.[/quote]
I'm getting really tired of being treated like I'm stupid by you, just to let you know.

He has cited a bunch of documents which do not [b]remotely[/b] say what he's saying. The only thing the documents say is that it is an objective disorder -- the rest is his own invention (or, more likely, the invention of some nutcase conservative professor at one of our "faithful" universities). I understand [b]what[/b] he's saying, I disagree that it is [b]Church teaching[/b], and he will not prove that it is.

Edited January 22, 2005 by Good Friday

[spathariossa]

I don't think it's that he doesn't get it at all. I think the issue is that the presentation by people like Apotheoun lacks both humility and charity. Maybe it is because this is the umpteenth time you've been through this but I think that the alienation comes from the means not the substance.

[jmjtina]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='Jan 22 2005, 02:43 PM'] And the fact that he is from some University -- probably Franciscan in Steubenville, which does [b]not[/b] impress me -- is not going to make me accept what he's saying at face value.

[/quote]
and we should take yours?

I usually don't take anything you say at face value at all since you usually go by your own logic of what Church documents seem to be (which seem to change from time to time) and your rollercoaster emotions.

[Good Friday]

[quote name='jmjtina']I usually don't take anything you say at face value at all since you usually go by your own logic of what Church documents seem to be (which seem to change from time to time) and your rollercoaster emotions.[/quote]
Hey, I resemble that remark.

One only need [b]read[/b] the documents, which are in plain English, to see that they do not say what he says they say. Even if I were an orthodox Catholic, I would not agree with what he's saying, because it is not Church teaching. The Church calls homosexuals to chastity, that is manifestly clear in the Catechism; the Church does not call homosexuals to change their orientation.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='spathariossa' date='Jan 22 2005, 12:49 PM']I don't think it's that he doesn't get it at all.  I think the issue is that the presentation by people like Apotheoun lacks both humility and charity.  Maybe it is because this is the umpteenth time you've been through this but I think that the alienation comes from the means not the substance.[/quote]
The fact that I won't cave in and say what is [i]politically correct[/i] may be offensive to some people, but that really is beside the point. Compassion cannot be separated from the truth.

I refuse to identify a man with any objectively disordered desire, and of course that includes the homosexual inclination; in other words, I refuse to reduce a man to concupiscence. Concupiscence has no [i]being[/i], rather it is a lack of being, i.e., it is a disorder of the will. Now this may be hard for some people to grasp in our society at the present time, but it is the constant teaching of the Church, reaffirmed as such at the Council of Trent in opposition to the Reformers. As Trent declared: ". . . this holy Synod confesses and perceives that there remains in the baptized [i]concupiscence of an inclination[/i], although this is left to be wrestled with, it cannot harm those who do not consent, [i]but manfully resist by the grace of Jesus Christ[/i]. Nay, indeed, 'he who shall have striven lawfully, shall be crowned' (2 Tim. 2:5). This concupiscence, which at times the Apostle calls sin (Rom. 6:12) the holy Synod declares that the Catholic Church has never understood to be called sin, as truly and properly sin in those born again, [i]but because it is from sin and inclines to sin[/i]. But if anyone is of the contrary opinion, let him be anathema." [Trent, [u]Decree on Original Sin[/u], no. 5] Grace is the medicine of the soul, and a man who has been justified by the gift of God's grace in Christ Jesus must use the various graces given to him in order to resist the disordered inclinations arising from original sin. Therefore, a man must never identify himself with those disordered inclinations, whatever they may be; rather, he must identify himself with Christ the Lord, who frees him from slavery to sin and death, and who empowers him to live as he should, resisting the various disordered inclinations affecting his will because of the fall of Adam.

God bless,
Todd