homosexual's born homosexual's

[toledo_jesus]

what makes the most sense to me is a diathesis-stress concept, that being that there is a certain amount of natural predilection towards a disorder, and that certain life experiences will aggravate it and symptoms will manifest. So there is a natural inclination for a boy to be somewhat homosexual, but he may not have same-sex attraction unless say, his father is absent or some other emotionally damaging circumstances arise.
I don't believe that homosexuals are born homosexual, I believe that people can have sex with anything that arouses them. When a disordered attraction is present of course it is possible to engage in sex. And besides, that's all irrelevant. We have biblical and Church teaching that has been consistent through the ages regarding homosexuality. It's wrong, disordered, and no good.

BUT...

[url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/arch...sm/p3s2c2a6.htm[/url]

[u]Catechism sec. 2 ch. 2 art. 6:[/u]

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "[b]homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered[/b]."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. [b]This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial.[/b] They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

I see nothing here in the Catechism about making homosexuals change. Personally I can't see any way to undo that sort of damage. They are called to chastity and if they are fortunate enough to know that then they have as good a chance as a straight person.

[spathariossa]

Ok Toledo before I say this, let me be clear that this isn't a knock against you.


I swear if I see this piece of Catechism quoted one more time I'm just gonna leave PM. We've all seen it. We all know it. It gets quoted on this board 20 times per days and I'm sick of it.

Thank you that is all.

[toledo_jesus]

well then what's the debate? Here we have the acknowledgment that we don't really know what causes it, but that we know it's wrong and so chastity is the answer...what it says to me is that it doesn't really matter whether people are born homosexual or they learn it.
I suppose I need it spelled out to me why we are debating this, because I really don't think it matters whether people are born that way or not.

[spathariossa]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Jan 22 2005, 02:05 AM'] well then what's the debate? Here we have the acknowledgment that we don't really know what causes it, but that we know it's wrong and so chastity is the answer...what it says to me is that it doesn't really matter whether people are born homosexual or they learn it.
I suppose I need it spelled out to me why we are debating this, because I really don't think it matters whether people are born that way or not. [/quote]
I completely agree.

Just as long as everybody doesn't jump on the "cure them" bandwagon.

[toledo_jesus]

I said that I don't think a cure would be forthcoming. The hard answer is that people have to live with it and fight against their own evil inclinations, to borrow from somebody smarter than me, and pretty long departed from this world.
So strange to have a conversation with somebody about this and not have to be PC. College is terrible like that. Even stranger, people with problems of this sort who actually love the Church and God enough to put aside their own wants...such a very nice site we have here. I hope you stay Spatha, if only to discuss swords and other such nonsense...speaking of which, my sword thread pretty much died.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='jezic' date='Jan 21 2005, 10:11 PM'] I don't think that being gay (or anything else for that matter) is a disorder or a disease as some would call it. It is something that God has given you, a unique path that is hidden from the eyes of the wise. I just pray that you will find your way. [/quote]
This comment is contrary to Catholic moral doctrine, because there is no such thing as [i]being[/i] "gay." God is not the cause of any disordered inclinations; rather, such inclinations have their origin in the fall of man from grace.

God bless,
Todd

[Good Friday]

[quote name='jezic']This is a friendly discussion. We are trying to help each other understand. Demands like that don't help. Does it really have to be something negative. You could show your proof that the church doesn't support it or say politely that the statement should be retracted. Asking for it to be deleted isn't going to do any good. Nothing will be proved either way then.[/quote]
I have asked politely for a retraction before; I'm only ignored when I ask politely. Apparently I am being ignored having not asked politely, as well -- again, this is a simple act of bigotry against gay people, because it is not Church teaching that gay people must change their sexual orientation. Misrepresenting Church teaching to say something worse about gay people than it actually does is bigotry.

As for proving that the Church doesn't teach what Apotheoun says it does regarding homosexuality, it's difficult to prove an absence. The proof is in the Church documents: you can read the relevant Catechism passage and the letters from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and see nothing about gays being expected to change their sexual orientation. If such a teaching is absent from the documents, then what Apotheoun is saying is only his opinion, and cannot, should not be misrepresented as Church teaching.

From the Catechism:

[quote name='Catechism of the Catholic Church' date=' #2357-2359']Homosexuality refers to relationships between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex.  It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures.  Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained.  Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."  They are contrary to the natural law.  They close the sexual act to the gift of life.  They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity.  Under no circumstances can they be approved.

The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible.  This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial.  They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity.  Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.  These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

Homosexual persons are called to chastity.  By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.[/quote]
The Catechism goes into great detail regarding homosexuality. It calls it "intrinsically disordered" and "objectively disordered," but it does not take the step Apotheoun takes, to state that it "is to be overcome by the power of God's grace." Instead of calling gays and lesbians to change their orientation, the Catechism calls them to chastity, which according to the Church means celibacy for gay people. The Catechism mentions specific duties that gay people are called to, none of which include a change in sexual orientation: we are generally called to fulfill God's will in their lives; we are called to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross our difficulties; we are called to chastity; we are called to self-mastery which teaches us inner freedom; and we are called to gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. In this sense, we are not called to anything different from other Christians -- our struggle is different, but what we must do in order to respond to that struggle is not. All Christians must take the same steps in their own circumstances.

The Catechism also mandates that we should be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity. In my mind, this would mean that individual Catholics should not demand of us that which the Church does not demand, i.e., that we change our sexual orientation. In actuality, individual Catholics have no right to [b]demand[/b] anything from us -- only to encourage us to follow Church teaching. But they certainly have no right to demand that we follow extra-magisterial opinion. That is not accepting us with respect, compassion and sensitivity.

I'm not saying that a homosexual orientation [b]can't[/b] be overcome by the power of God's grace; what I'm saying is that the Church does not [b]require[/b] gay people to change their orientation. I acknowledge that there are many Catholics who previously experienced homosexual attraction and feel that they have overcome that attraction -- and that's fine, that's up to them. I think it may even be wonderful, if indeed they actually feel liberated from that which they feel was hindering their relationship with God and the Church. What I'm saying is that there are many gay Catholics who cannot change their orientation in this way; and also that there are many gay Catholics who don't even want to, who acknowledge that they are gay and that it is a part of their lives, but who nevertheless lead chaste lives in accordance with Church teaching. These Catholics are not, in any way, [b]required[/b] to try to change their sexual orientation. They are only required to do what all Catholics are required to do -- and that is to lead chaste lives. Anyone who says that anything else is required of gay Catholics [b]must[/b] prove it. Just saying it, without any proof, not only shows a lack of credibility, but also brings scandal to the faithful.

[BeenaBobba]

I think there might be a genetic component to homosexuality, but I don't think homosexuality is determined by genetics alone. After all, there are instances where identical twins have different sexual orientations. It's also possible that homosexuality is at least partially caused by environmental factors, such as the amount of hormones a fetus is exposed to in the womb. And lastly, there's probably psychological factors involved. For example, just about every gay man I have ever known doesn't have a good relationship with his dad.

All that being said, I think that most people aren't born gay. I think they're born with a genetic and/or environmental predisposition to homosexuality, and that a homosexual orientation will appear in them under certain psychological conditions (but that might not always be the case).

God bless,

Jen

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='Jan 22 2005, 10:26 AM'] Apotheoun takes, to state that it "is to be overcome by the power of God's grace."  Instead of calling gays and lesbians to change their orientation, the Catechism calls them to chastity, which according to the Church means celibacy for gay people. [/quote]
Hi Nate,

I didn't read his original post, so I can't really say, but maybe he's not trying to imply that homosexuals should try to change their orientation. As an Eastern Catholic, he undoubtedly puts a lot of emphasis on [i]theosis[/i], the process of becoming more like God. Homosexuality is intrinsically disordered; it's a result of original sin. When homosexuals get to Heaven, perhaps their homosexuality no longer exists. If that's the case, it's overcome by grace.

God bless,

Jen

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='crusader1234' date='Jan 21 2005, 05:43 PM'] I'm going to leave the debating homosexuality to Ironmonk and Spath, but I just figured out that even if people are born homosexual (you guys can debate that), its not God's creation.

People have not been, and will never be, born perfect since the fall. This is the result of original sin. Humans are born with sin, and it is within human nature to be tempted to sin thruought life. It is wrong to think that people are born perfect. God doesn't create physiological and psychological disorders, humans are responsible for that. [/quote]
Exactly.

God bless,

Jen

[jasJis]

[quote name='Joseph' date='Jan 21 2005, 04:12 PM'] It may very well be possible that a person could be born with a tendency to develop a same-sex attraction more so than others, but others are born with a tendency to become easily addicted to alcohol., and so on. A tendency does not mean that the person will be a homosexual, just that it may become an issue. It's also possible that the environment a person grows up in may contribute to the influence of this tendency. I'm just throwing out a possible hypothesis; I'm not saying any of this is true.

In my opinion, I think it is a cross that certain people are presented with to bear. While some are tempted by homosexuality, others have to struggle with different sins. We all have to overcome some type of temptation, some much more difficult than others. [/quote]
A wise comment.

[Good Friday]

[quote name='BeenaBobba']For example, just about every gay man I have ever known doesn't have a good relationship with his dad.[/quote]
The question that is never asked is this: Is homosexuality a result of the bad relationship with the same-sex parent, or is the bad relationship with the same-sex parent a result of homosexuality? Most assume that the former supposition is the case, but it could just as easily be the latter -- maybe, for whatever reason, people are born homosexuals, and this somehow adversely affects their relationships with their same-sex parent in some cases (not all).

Of course, that's pure speculation on my part. I have no scientific evidence for it. I just think it's an interesting observation.

As for whether or not homosexuality is genetic or psychological/environmental/developmental, I don't know and find the question largely irrelevant. In either case, homosexuality is not chosen, and in many cases it cannot be overcome (some would say in all cases). Whether or not this is the case because of genetics or other factors is irrelevant -- the point is that the orientation is not chosen, it often cannot be overcome, and therefore homosexuals cannot be reasonably asked to overcome it. Thus, I don't argue with people over the genetics/psychology thing anymore -- I just don't care. The point is that it is not chosen. My only issue is with those who believe it is behavioral, i.e., that it is freely chosen, but they are a very small minority and almost non-existent in the Catholic Church.

As for Apotheoun's Eastern Catholic spirituality and Eastern Catholics' emphasis on [i]theosis[/i], I hadn't taken that into account. My position remains the same -- I don't think that gays and lesbians should be asked to try to reverse their sexual orientation. If that's what Apotheoun meant, then I strongly disagree with him. If not, then I apologize for my harsh words and for the misunderstanding. Whether or not homosexuals' orientation will change in the afterlife, when we have undergone [i]theosis[/i], I can't say. The Church's teaching would seem to indicate that it is consistent for Catholics to believe that the sexual orientation would change -- if it is objectively disordered, then one would think that it would not endure the process of [i]theosis[/i]. On the other hand, even Christ's glorified body still carried the wounds of the crucifixion (even though these were not part of the natural order) -- so we really can't say what parts of us will remain after [i]theosis[/i] and what parts of us will be purified and renewed. Christ's wounds were allowed to remain as a witness to what God did for us (at least that's why I think they remained, if there is some other interpretation please fill me in); perhaps the sexual orientation of homosexuals, although the Church says that it is not part of the natural order, will remain in a glorified form as evidence of what God has done for us, by bringing us to Him in extremely difficult circumstances.

[i]Theosis[/i] is so mysterious that it's difficult to know what exactly it would entail. Of course, this is all contingent upon believing that the Church is right about the objectively disordered nature of homosexuality -- and I don't believe that. I'm playing devil's advocate. If it were objectively disordered, the most likely interpretation is that [i]theosis[/i] would purify it and align it with the natural order. Another possible interpretation is that it could remain as a witness to what God has done for homosexuals. On the other hand, another possibility is that we will have no sexual orientation at all after [i]theosis[/i], since we will be like the angels and no longer marry. It's difficult to know which of these will be the case, and it may be that none of them or a combination of them will occur. God is so significantly "other" than us, and what we will be after [i]theosis[/i] is so "other" than us, that it seems almost humorous to speak about these things when we will be sharing in God's own blessed life -- my suspicion is that we won't care about this anymore at all.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='BeenaBobba' date='Jan 22 2005, 06:52 AM'] Hi Nate,

I didn't read his original post, so I can't really say, but maybe he's not trying to imply that homosexuals should try to change their orientation.  As an Eastern Catholic, he undoubtedly puts a lot of emphasis on [i]theosis[/i], the process of becoming more like God.  Homosexuality is intrinsically disordered; it's a result of original sin.  When homosexuals get to Heaven, perhaps their homosexuality no longer exists.  If that's the case, it's overcome by grace.

God bless,

Jen [/quote]
My point is this: the disordered inclinations of a man's will that arise because of the fall from grace do not [i]exist[/i] essentially; rather, they are a lack of being. All disordered inclinations are a relative absence of the good in the will of the creature. Thus, the homosexual inclination, along with other disordered desires (e.g., the desire to lie, steal, commit adultery, etc.), has no ontological or essential reality. All concupiscential inclinations are privations. Thus, no concupiscential inclination – including the homosexual inclination – has any essential existence; instead, the various disorders of the will brought about by the fall are privations, and as such they cannot be thought of as an identifying characteristic of the human person. Concupiscence is a defect, and so it is not caused or created by God. That is why I refuse to reduce any man's [i]being[/i] (subsistence) to an objective disorder.

Moreover, it is correct to say that as a Byzantine Catholic I emphasize the doctrine of [i]theosis[/i] – [i]theosis[/i] is salvation – but [i]theosis[/i] doesn't just occur after a man is dead; instead, it begins and continues throughout a man's temporal existence. The Eastern Church holds that a man can see the vision of the uncreated Light in this life, and not merely in the age to come. Thus, grace, as the uncreated energy of God, can and does overcome all the defects arising from the fall of Adam, and not just in the future, but here and now. Certainly this conquering of concupiscence will require great effort on the part of each man, and he may have to struggle against his disordered inclinations throughout his entire life, but grace, which is the very life and glory of God infused into man, can overcome anything arising from the fall.

God bless,
Todd

[Good Friday]

Apotheoun, what I am trying to ascertain from you is simple:

1. Do you believe that homosexual persons (or however you define us) [b]must[/b] try to be rid of our homosexual orientation? (These may not be the terms you would use, but I think you understand me nevertheless).

2. If so, do you say that it's Church teaching that we [b]must[/b] try to be rid of our homosexual orientation?

3. If so, on what grounds? Please, I am begging you, cite a source.

If you believe personally that homosexual persons must try to be rid of our homosexual orientation, I'm not going to argue with you about it. That's your belief and all right, I don't agree with you, but let's move on. But if you're representing it as Church teaching that homosexual persons must try to be rid of our homosexual orientation, I would like to know from whence this teaching comes if I am to follow it.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='Jan 22 2005, 09:54 AM']Apotheoun, what I am trying to ascertain from you is simple:

1. Do you believe that homosexual persons (or however you define us) [b]must[/b] try to be rid of our homosexual orientation?  (These may not be the terms you would use, but I think you understand me nevertheless).[/quote]
As I've said before, concupiscent desires are not natural to man, they are the result of the fall from grace. Thus, grace, as medicine for the soul, can overcome the various disordered inclinations affecting man, including homosexual inclinations. I will not make an objective disorder the identifying characteristic of any human being.

Let me be clear about this, I do get what you are trying to say, but your point is theologically inaccurate, and as a consequence I don't agree with you. Concupiscential inclinations, like the homosexual condition, are not created by God, they are not ontological realities, and that is why the Church says that they are objective disorders.

[quote name='Good Friday' date='Jan 22 2005, 09:54 AM']2. If so, do you say that it's Church teaching that we [b]must[/b] try to be rid of our homosexual orientation?[/quote]
Disorders of the will do not essentially exist. The homosexual condition is an effect of the fall from grace, as all disordered inclinations are, and so it must be overcome by the power of God's uncreated energy (grace).

[quote name='Good Friday' date='Jan 22 2005, 09:54 AM']3. If so, on what grounds?  Please, I am begging you, cite a source.[/quote]
I have already, in previous posts on the forum, cited the three main documents issued by the Magisterium over the past 30 years on this topic, so I am not going to cite them yet again. But you can do a word search for them, or simply look at the three recently closed threads dealing with this topic.

[quote name='Good Friday' date='Jan 22 2005, 09:54 AM']If you believe personally that homosexual persons must try to be rid of our homosexual orientation, I'm not going to argue with you about it.  That's your belief and all right, I don't agree with you, but let's move on.  But if you're representing it as Church teaching that homosexual persons must try to be rid of our homosexual orientation, I would like to know from whence this teaching comes if I am to follow it.[/quote]
Still you seem to miss my point. There is no such thing as a "homosexual" person as a subsisting reality, there are human persons afflicted with homosexual inclinations, and those inclinations must be overcome by the power of God's grace. The Church doesn't teach that the homosexual condition is an existing thing; instead, in those cases where the condition seems to perdure the Church has described the condition as a kind of "pathological constitution." [CDF [u]Persona Humana[/u], no. 7]

The Church has definitively declared that the homosexual inclination ". . . is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder." [CDF [u]Homosexualitatis Problema[/u], no. 3]

No human being is reducible to concupiscent desires.

My question for you is this: Why do you insist upon identifying yourself with an objective disorder?

God bless,
Todd