The Sin of the Capitalism

[MichaelFilo]

Yes, it's true wealth, even in large sums, if distributed unevently amongst alot of people would be better than one force having the excess. Then again, I don't see how my views on economy could be realized in this day and age anyways. I'd prefer a tyrant than many greedy people. Tyrant = one soul lost. Many greed people = lots of souls lost.

God bless,

Mikey

P.S. Please try to understand I view economy as a way to control greed as opposed to material success. I fall on the nurture end of the nature vs nurture debate. I believe that certain economic systems tend to cause more lost souls than others.

[Socrates]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Jan 20 2005, 11:32 PM'] Yes, it's true wealth, even in large sums, if distributed unevently amongst alot of people would be better than one force having the excess. Then again, I don't see how my views on economy could be realized in this day and age anyways. I'd prefer a tyrant than many greedy people. Tyrant = one soul lost. Many greed people = lots of souls lost.

God bless,

Mikey

P.S. Please try to understand I view economy as a way to control greed as opposed to material success. I fall on the nurture end of the nature vs nurture debate. I believe that certain economic systems tend to cause more lost souls than others. [/quote]
I very strongly disagree.
I do not see the point of the economy to "control" greed. Economy and the government can never do this. The point of the economy is simply to create wealth.

We as individuals must control our greed by not buying into materialistic values, and by living and preaching the gospel. This is not the job of "the economy" or of government.

I've got to go to bed now, but I'll be back.

[james]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Jan 20 2005, 11:32 PM'] I believe that certain economic systems tend to cause more lost souls than others. [/quote]
And this is the truly Catholic approach to economics, or any topic for that matter.

As Catholics we must promote the Social Kingship of Christ and oppose whatever may diminish it.

Capitalism and the usury which it depends on diminishes the Social Kingship of Christ, disregards the dignity of man, and wreaks havoc on human souls.

I advocate trade guilds.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='crusader1234' date='Jan 21 2005, 01:16 AM']I disagree with you, Ironmonk.  So far, theres no evidence Socialism doesn't work.  Scandanavia and Canada are all doing just fine (and to the dozen of you out there with a friend named Joe from Canada that says the healthcare system smells of elderberries, I'm Rich from Canada and you can look up United Nations ratings of our system and its doing just fine).  Socialism doesn't breed laziness neccesarily...

Anyways, back on topic:  Capitalist societies are set up in a manner which prohibits growth and success for the vast majority of entrepreneurial endeavours.  Restaurants are constantly closing, farmers are constantly having to sell out due to the high price of competition, etc.

Wal-Mart, McDonalds, and other companies give their employees horrible wages, jobs with no dignity, and don't allow them to form unions.  These workers own nothing, which is clearly outlined as being wrong in Rerum Novarum.

Its not a simple issue of Capitalism being right of Socialism being right, there are other options.  I hate the way people look at everything as black and white.[/quote]
There is plenty of evidence that socialism doesn't work.


Socialism was implemented in the Soviet Union starting in 1917. In 1989 the Soviet Union collapsed. Capitalism was implemented well over 200 years ago. Today the USA is the most prosperous nation in the history of the world.

I listened to this live... here's a transcript, with a Canadian...

[url="http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1291811/posts"]http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1291811/posts[/url]


[quote name='John Mooney']"I believe that socialism fails because of the inequalities that exist. Didn't Marx say something like, `To each according to his needs and from each according to his abilities.' This does not work because in every society there will be individuals that want a larger share than their fellows and they will get it within any system that exists. In a democracy with a free market system they will profit from the needs and desires of others, in a fascist state they will join the party, and in the USSR they became commissars. These people who are driven to rise to the top of any social order will always exist and will work to satisfy that drive within any system in which they find themselves. I believe that a successful political system must accept this as a fact of human nature and arrange a compromise that allows the driven the freedom to do their thing but safeguards the general populace from exploitation." [/quote]



Socialism is wrong.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[crusader1234]

Your comments about socialism would be more appropriate in the Socialism thread. That was only a portion of my post, if you'd like to refute the rest, be my guest.

[MichaelFilo]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jan 21 2005, 12:46 AM'] I very strongly disagree.
I do not see the point of the economy to "control" greed. Economy and the government can never do this. The point of the economy is simply to create wealth.

We as individuals must control our greed by not buying into materialistic values, and by living and preaching the gospel. This is not the job of "the economy" or of government.

I've got to go to bed now, but I'll be back. [/quote]
You can't stop greed because people have to make that descion. However, you can make environmenets more preventive of greed. Just as someone who grows up in a home with pornographic magazines laying about is more likely to be a lustful person, so too does the idea that capatlism depends on greed to work and in effect causes the loss of many souls. You cannot control things that destroy moral standards, you can only promote them less or not at all. In a capatlistic society, where materialism abounds, greed will be a driving force behind that economic success. Yes, people will be materially wealthy, at the cost of many lost souls however, including their own. This logic would make sense if viewed like that. When you try to see the economic style as a form of "control" over greed and other related sins, then yes you are wholly right, no form of economy will control sin any better than another. The real situation is, however, that certain forms tend to lead to more sin than others. Capatlism can only function off of greed. Better the whole world be at substinence than one man perish in the eternal flame.

God bless,
Mikey

[Guest Aluigi]

the same person posted the thread condemning socialism as posted the thread condemning socialism

G.K. Chesterton was right, we all noticed that Socialism is evil so we had to ally ourselves with Capitalism

[jessinoelw]

There are more options than just socialism vs. capitalism vs. communism. Distributivism (a.k.a. distributism and other names) is a better road and compatible with Catholic teaching. Check out [url="http://www.distributism.com/"]http://www.distributism.com/[/url]

--Jessica

[ironmonk]

[quote name='crusader1234' date='Jan 21 2005, 01:16 AM'] I disagree with you, Ironmonk. So far, theres no evidence Socialism doesn't work. Scandanavia and Canada are all doing just fine (and to the dozen of you out there with a friend named Joe from Canada that says the healthcare system smells of elderberries, I'm Rich from Canada and you can look up United Nations ratings of our system and its doing just fine). Socialism doesn't breed laziness neccesarily...

Anyways, back on topic: Capitalist societies are set up in a manner which prohibits growth and success for the vast majority of entrepreneurial endeavours. Restaurants are constantly closing, farmers are constantly having to sell out due to the high price of competition, etc.

Wal-Mart, McDonalds, and other companies give their employees horrible wages, jobs with no dignity, and don't allow them to form unions. These workers own nothing, which is clearly outlined as being wrong in Rerum Novarum.

Its not a simple issue of Capitalism being right of Socialism being right, there are other options. I hate the way people look at everything as black and white. [/quote]
Every job has dignity.

It's a job, and someone has to do it.

Some endevors fail. If they fail, then they need to try something else.

People need to work to support themselves.

I don't want to support a restaurant that no one wants to eat at. If the owners don't have a good restaurant and fail at it, then they should try something else or work for someone else.

We all can't have equal jobs.

Unions are not needed in today's age.

A worker has no right to force someone to pay them what the worker thinks that he's worth. A prime example is Christ's parable about the workers hired in the morning, at noon, and at the end of the day... they all got paid the same, and those that agreed to work for a set wage and worked all day for it complained that those who worked only part of the day should not have gotten the same amount as they did.


Socialism is the result of envy.


[b]St. Matt 20:12 [/b]
saying, 'These last ones worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us, who bore the day's burden and the heat.'
[b]13 [/b]He said to one of them in reply, [color=red]'My friend, I am not cheating you. 4 Did you not agree with me for the usual daily wage?[/color]
[b]14 [/b][color=red]Take what is yours and go. What if I wish to give this last one the same as you? [/color]
[b]15 [/b](Or) [b][color=red]am I not free to do as I wish with my own money? Are you envious because I am generous?[/color][/b]'




[b]2 Thess. 3:10 [/b]
In fact, when we were with you, we instructed you that if anyone was unwilling to work, neither should that one eat.



Part of life is failing. We learn by failing. If people are satisfied with mediocre then socialism might be right for them.

As for me, I want quality and if someone is putting out quality, they should be rewarded for it. If someone is not putting out quality, they shouldn't be rewarded for it.

Sometimes people loose, that's part of life. To be able to win, some must loose. Life will go on for them, maybe they won't be able to own a business, but they'll get a job somewhere.

As far as a "job with dignity" myth... any honest job is honorable with dignity. Someone has to do them. Not everyone can have a high paying job - economies fail when that happens. Certain jobs will not get completed. And Wal-Mart and McDonalds pay their employees well for being totally new to work. There must be entry level jobs for teens. Etc...

There is ample evidence that socialism fails, do a search and study. I have but I don't have time to go over every little failure.

To each his own. Free markets are better than heavy government controlled markets.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Guest Aluigi]

yeah I'm promoting Distributism

[jessinoelw]

Other distributist links:

[url="http://www.medaille.com/distributivism.htm"]http://www.medaille.com/distributivism.htm[/url]
[url="http://distributism.blogspot.com/"]http://distributism.blogspot.com/[/url]

--Jessica

[crusader1234]

Living Justice and Peace's (Nihil Obstat, Imprimatur) Summary of the themes of Rerum Novarum states that Workers must receive a just wage - an amount sufficient to provide a decent life for a workers whole family - [u]and must be free to organize associations, now known as unions, to negotiate working conditions.[/u]

[james]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Jan 21 2005, 01:08 AM'] the same person posted the thread condemning socialism as posted the thread condemning socialism

G.K. Chesterton was right, we all noticed that Socialism is evil so we had to ally ourselves with Capitalism [/quote]
Satan strives to create the illusion that there are only two choices, both evil, and that we must choose the lesser of them, but supporting the lesser of evils is support for a percieved evil.


Socialism and Capitalism are both evil. We cannot support either of them if we are to honor the Kingship of Christ and the dignity of man.

We should be aligning ourselves not with socialism or capitalism, but with Christ.

Trade guilds and the just wage coupled with the abolishment of usury and fiat currency is what we need to return to.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='A Primer on Distributism']Yes, the formal right to private property exists for all under capitalism, but in practice it is restricted to the rich.
From a Primer on Distributism: [url="http://www.theuniversityconcourse.com/V,5,1-28-2000/Storck.htm"]http://www.theuniversityconcourse.com/V,5,...2000/Storck.htm[/url][/quote]

Wrong. The premis of distributism makes too many false assumptions. The practice is not restricted to the rich - [b]maybe in 1891 [/b]it was, but not today. People who say this in today's time don't know much about America. Anyone working at McDonalds can earn enough to buy property. Some places it is more expensive than others but the bottom line is that people can move to somewhere that it's cheaper. For example, here in my town the average price for a home lot is about $60,000... where I'm from someone can buy a lot for around $4000. Putting a decent house on that lot could cost as little as $50,000... Someone working at McDonalds can afford a mortgage of $54k over 20 or 30 years.

As for minium wage - it's for entry level positions, the majority of min. wage earners in America are teenagers in high school. The majority of people who make min. wage do not need to live off of it. Not all jobs should pay a living wage.


American Capitalism it's easy for everyone to own property if they only put a little effort into it.


God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited January 21, 2005 by ironmonk

[Socrates]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Jan 21 2005, 12:59 AM'] You can't stop greed because people have to make that descion. However, you can make environmenets more preventive of greed. Just as someone who grows up in a home with pornographic magazines laying about is more likely to be a lustful person, so too does the idea that capatlism depends on greed to work and in effect causes the loss of many souls. You cannot control things that destroy moral standards, you can only promote them less or not at all. In a capatlistic society, where materialism abounds, greed will be a driving force behind that economic success. Yes, people will be materially wealthy, at the cost of many lost souls however, including their own. This logic would make sense if viewed like that. When you try to see the economic style as a form of "control" over greed and other related sins, then yes you are wholly right, no form of economy will control sin any better than another. The real situation is, however, that certain forms tend to lead to more sin than others. Capatlism can only function off of greed. Better the whole world be at substinence than one man perish in the eternal flame.

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
No offense intended, Mikey, but yours is proabably the weakest argument against captialism I have read.
Greed is a sin of the heart and soul. It is not caused by an economic system.
The economy is about creating and building material wealth, nothing more. It does not force people to be greedy.
The argument that the government should restrict the economy and deliberately make people poorer for the purpose of saving souls is an absurd one. This would be the worst form of unjust government. It would not save souls, but simply build (rightful) resentment against the government.

If I were to rob you, stealing what items and money of yours I deemed excessive, for the sake of saving your soul from materialism and greed and claimed I knew better than you what to do with these goods, what would you think?
I'd still be a thief.

Your arguments make as much sense as saying the government should promote ineffective agricultural methods to hamper farmers in the production of food, so we will not create an over-abundance of food and an atmosphere promoting gluttony!