Laudate_Dominum Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 [quote name='Aluigi' date='Jan 22 2005, 08:03 PM'] me too. Go find my The Sin of the Capitalism thread and/or my The Virtue of the Distributist thread [/quote] Aww sweet! I was expected a confrontation after my last post. How neat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Jan 22 2005, 08:28 PM'] Is socialism is not inherently bad, why have the Holy Fathers repeatedly condemned it? [/quote] Socialism is a VERY broad range of economic ideals that have more or less have all officially originated during the 18th and 19th century, but have been practiced prior to in many forms ranging from Buddhist monastaries to the Christian community in Acts. Just like all the Fathers condemn abortion, so too they condemn with socialism. However, even in abortion indirect abortions with no intent to kill anyone but to save a life are permitted. So too when you talk about something as broad as socialism, to consider the Fathers and all Church officials who have condemned it as making a blanket statement would be errenous. Voluntary socialism has never been condmend but instead is part of the Catholic life for many before and many to come. The community in Acts, monastaries and nunneries, and I'm sure many other examples all serve to show the Church's use of voluntary socialism throughout history to this day. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Jan 25 2005, 12:29 AM'] Socialism is a VERY broad range of economic ideals that have more or less have all officially originated during the 18th and 19th century, but have been practiced prior to in many forms ranging from Buddhist monastaries to the Christian community in Acts. Just like all the Fathers condemn abortion, so too they condemn with socialism. However, even in abortion indirect abortions with no intent to kill anyone but to save a life are permitted. So too when you talk about something as broad as socialism, to consider the Fathers and all Church officials who have condemned it as making a blanket statement would be errenous. Voluntary socialism has never been condmend but instead is part of the Catholic life for many before and many to come. The community in Acts, monastaries and nunneries, and I'm sure many other examples all serve to show the Church's use of voluntary socialism throughout history to this day. God bless, Mikey [/quote] I think a distinction needs to made between socialism in the usual source of the word (as a government's system of contrtolling a nation's in economy) and voluntary "socialism" in the monastic sense. What you call "socialism" in monastary's etc. is voluntary poverty - an Evangleical Counsel. Socialism is involuntary state-enforced poverty, and is disasterous as a national policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 I still don't see the logic on looking down on owenistic socialism. If implamented on the community level and having some form of representation for each community under a unified state, neither property is lost, simply shared (but still owned), and the country isn't reduced to autonomous communities. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 voluntary sharing is ok. state or community regulated sharing isn't. I have not merely stated that PROPERTY is a right, but even moreso that PRIVATE property is a right. That means private, choose what you want to do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 Why the need of private property. Property belong to a person, but not private, is still that person's. Except he is to share it. I don't think the Church has specified that private property is the Will of God, merely property. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 (edited) [quote]4. To remedy these wrongs the socialists, working on the poor man's envy of the rich, are striving to do away with [b]private property[/b], and contend that individual possessions should become the common property of all, to be administered by the State or by municipal bodies. They hold that by thus transferring property from private individuals to the community, the present mischievous state of things will be set to rights, inasmuch as each citizen will then get his fair share of whatever there is to enjoy. But their contentions are so clearly powerless to end the controversy that were they carried into effect the working man himself would be among the first to suffer. They are, moreover, emphatically unjust, for they would rob the lawful possessor, distort the functions of the State, and create utter confusion in the community. 9. Here, again, we have further proof that [b]private ownership[/b] is in accordance with the law of nature. Truly, that which is required for the preservation of life, and for life's well-being, is produced in great abundance from the soil, but not until man has brought it into cultivation and expended upon it his solicitude and skill. Now, when man thus turns the activity of his mind and the strength of his body toward procuring the fruits of nature, by such act he makes his own that portion of nature's field which he cultivates - that portion on which he leaves, as it were, the impress of his personality; and it cannot but be just that he should possess that portion as his very own, and have a right to hold it without any one being justified in violating that right. [/quote] -Rerum Novarum, Pope Leo XIII That is among many references to the RIGHT of PRIVATE property the Church has made. Property that is not private is barely property in the first place, except that it is possessed. If one does not have the option to do with it as they please, they do not really own it. <Note to Socrates who is reading this topic, I sent you an Email by Hillaire Belloc entitled The Faith and Industrial Capitalism. I think you will enjoy it > Edited January 26, 2005 by Aluigi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 Seems your right, but I'm not sure if I'm convinced. Is this teaching binding upon Catholics, or sound advice? Either way, I'll give up my arguement since A catholic isn't a legalist, and so doesn't only take things they HAVE to believe, but things that are good to believe. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 (edited) It's based upon scripture and the constant teaching and traditions of the Church and is the very reason she has always condemned socialism Edited January 27, 2005 by Aluigi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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