spathariossa Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jan 21 2005, 12:26 PM'] This is true. I'm an Eastern Catholic and many of the Byzantine Churches have married priests, but even in those particular Churches there is at the present time a shortage of priests. The problem is not centered upon celibacy, rather it is a cultural problem, a problem focused on the unwillingness of many men to make life long commitments. It is the hedonistic materialism of the modern western world that tends to discourage the vocations of men to the priestly and religious life. Thus, what is needed is a true moral reform of society. God bless, Todd [/quote] I agree. I'd be a priest but I kinda messed that whole thing up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Friday Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 [quote name='MC Just']ROTFL.....Liberal Radical Feminists have atempted to destroy the Male Priesthood, the "shortage" was created by them so they can get Female and married priests.They will never get what they want.[/quote] I don't even know why I'm responding to you, but . . . The priest shortage was not created by anyone, it is a reality; just ask the people who celebrate Sunday Services in the Absence of a Priest, which resembles a Good Friday service and is not a Mass, and deprives them of their baptismal right to the assistance of the sacraments. Even the Church acknowledges that there is a priest shortage -- why do you think the bishops and the pope are so hyper about praying for vocations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 22, 2005 Author Share Posted January 22, 2005 Many things are responsible for the priest shortage, but I fear that we might ecome "Protestant by default" to quote the Asian bishops. A Church of the Word, but not of the Sacraments...that's scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Friday Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 [quote name='hyperdulia again']Many things are responsible for the priest shortage, but I fear that we might ecome "Protestant by default" to quote the Asian bishops. A Church of the Word, but not of the Sacraments...that's scary.[/quote] I agree with you that the reasons for the priest shortage are manifold. I think that celibacy is certainly an issue; I also think that the culture of clericalism, which sets priests so apart from the faithful, has made the priesthood look unappealing to Catholics who have a sense of mission among the people instead of apart from them; I think that the sexual abuse scandal has eroded the image of the priesthood in the eyes of young men; and I do think that our culture of selfishness in this country and in Western Europe have contributed to it, but the culture of selfishness is not just a result of "liberalism" -- conservatives contribute to it, as well, by variously advocating an incorrect use of the death penalty, unjust war, torture (which is intrinsically evil), unfettered capitalism, etc. These are all selfish and contribute to our culture of selfishness. Liberals play their part, too, but we are not solely to blame. I also recognize that the ordination of married men will not be a cure all, and that it will bring its own problems which will need to be solved. One of them, which was brought up on this thread, is that we will have to figure out how these men's families are going to be provided for. That is a difficult question, and I don't have any easy answers to it. What I do know is that there is an increasing number of parishes worldwide, both in the developing world and in the developed world, which are celebrating Sunday Services in the Absence of a Priest instead of Sunday Eucharist. Most think that people are not legitimately concerned about this and that it is just a front for trying to change Church discipline; in my case, at least, that isn't true. My genuine concern is that the Church will cease to be sacramental when the Sacrament of Sacraments is replaced with Sunday Services in the Absence of a Priest, which do not celebrate the Eucharist and are not sacramental in nature. How can the local Church continue to be a sacramental Church without the Eucharist, if "the Church draws her life from the Eucharist" ([i]Ecclesia de Eucharistia[/i], #1)? I still think that the best way to solve the priest shortage is to pray for more vocations. But I think that it's a bad idea at this stage in the shortage for us to totally ignore, without even discussing it, the vocations which may be available to the Church among married men. As I asked before: How can we be sure that God has not already given us the vocations that we've been asking for, and that we're not just failing to look in the right places? I know that many Catholics don't favor married priests; that's why I think we should have a discussion of it instead of just leaping into it. But ignoring, minimizing or even belittling the priest shortage throughout the world isn't going to solve anything, and it only presents a Church that is in denial and can't come to grips with reality in its own state of affairs. This priest shortage is affecting many Catholics throughout the world (no, I don't have a statistic handy on how many, but it's a lot), and the fact is that they are being deprived of their baptismal right to the assistance of the sacraments, especially the Eucharist, and that this will eventually lead to a greater loss of our sacramental faith among Catholics. There is already a lack of belief in the Real Presence among Catholics; this will only worsen if Catholics rarely experience the Real Presence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 22, 2005 Author Share Posted January 22, 2005 I'm actually in favor of married priests, if it gets one priest to one church that would have had to do without Sacramental Grace, I think it's worth whatever pronlems it causes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmjtina Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 funny how we are so quick to encourage married priests and women yet ignore the young men who are already in our parishes who will hold fast the teachings of Christ. There are plenty of young men in our own parishes, yet it is a fight against society. Our parish is getting rid of all girl altar servers already and our priest and the youth ministry is doing all we can to help the young boys in our parish. you don't have to look in other places. The answer to this problem is literally under our noses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmjtina Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Jan 21 2005, 12:19 PM'] I don't think the primary problem here really has anything to do with marriage and celibacy requirements. The Church has required priests to be celibate through most of her history, and throught most of that time there has been no shortage of vocations. The problem is the state of the Church as a whole. The problem is that many contemporary Catholics just don't take the Faith very seriously. They pick and choose what beliefs or practices they want to follow. They don't go to mass regularly. They don't receive the Sacrament of Penance. The Faith plays little part in their lives. So of course they are not going to be willing to give their lives to God as priests! Among solid, orthodox diocese, parishes, etc., vocations are flourishing. Where there is Faith, there are vocations. Where there is not Faith, there are not vocations. [/quote] exactly. We have alot of work to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 23, 2005 Author Share Posted January 23, 2005 I don't see anyone discouraging these young men, I don't even see where anyone has endorsed women priests. I certainly don't discourage young men from the priesthood, we're (my sister and I) paying one's way through the seminary! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Friday Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 I've not said anything about female priests, and I'm not going to do, although I'm sure you can all guess what my position on that is (the one opposite of the Vatican). But I will acknowledge that married priests and female priests are two different situations. The ordination of married men could easily be accomplished, since mandatory celibacy is discipline rather than doctrine; the ordination of women is much more complicated since the Vatican maintains that it is related to the doctrine of holy orders rather than simple discipline. There is no conceivable reason why the discipline of mandatory celibacy could not be overturned. Whether or not this should be done is yet to be determined, but I think a serious discussion should take place. As for encouraging young men to pursue a vocation to the priesthood with mandatory celibacy, I'm all for it. I've certainly never said that we shouldn't. Of course, I don't think that means we should exclude girls from altar service -- since the Vatican says that it's okay, there is no reason except misogyny to exclude women from altar service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 [quote name='jmjtina' date='Jan 22 2005, 05:44 PM'] funny how we are so quick to encourage married priests and women yet ignore the young men who are already in our parishes who will hold fast the teachings of Christ. There are plenty of young men in our own parishes, yet it is a fight against society. Our parish is getting rid of all girl altar servers already and our priest and the youth ministry is doing all we can to help the young boys in our parish. you don't have to look in other places. The answer to this problem is literally under our noses. [/quote] So getting rid of Girl Altar servers is a good thing?? I fail to see why that's the case if the Vatican has given approval for the practice. I guess we should just keep those little girls in their place though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 so long as all the priests involved in the discussion understand it won't mean they can get married or anything. it's about ordaining married men being alright. we would need to radically restructure the Catholic Culture in the west, but the thing is: it is in quite a need of restructuring because of the crises (and not just the vocation shortage, the ORTHODOXY shortage). Eastern married priests work because their communities are centered around the family of the priest. It is not feasable to put this in the West without restructuring the culture. That includes a lot more orthodoxy and a lot more tight-knit of a Catholic community. Otherwise we're going to end up simply adopting a protestant practice. Everyone knows the stereotypes about a pastor's kid and stuff, and the high divorce rate of protestant pastors... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 [quote name='spathariossa' date='Jan 22 2005, 09:31 PM'] So getting rid of Girl Altar servers is a good thing?? I fail to see why that's the case if the Vatican has given approval for the practice. I guess we should just keep those little girls in their place though... [/quote] it's not about 'putting girls in their place' so much as it is promoting men to become priests. it is a fact that the Church has always used altar boys as a pool for potential priestly vocations. and when there's girls, guys don't see it as anything special. girls are notoriously more prone to volunteer for stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmjtina Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 (edited) [quote name='spathariossa' date='Jan 22 2005, 09:31 PM'] So getting rid of Girl Altar servers is a good thing?? I fail to see why that's the case if the Vatican has given approval for the practice. I guess we should just keep those little girls in their place though... [/quote] Yes it is a good thing that my parish priest is enforcing. We are working for more holy vocations in the parish particularly for priests, and if doing away with girl altar servers is something we need to do as a parish so be it. We volunteer for everything as Al said. (I'm a girl as well and used to be an altar server) Lectors, youth ministry, CDA, you name it, we are SO there! We don't discourage them from participating, we encourage them to participate in other areas of the Church. The Altar boys are specifically going through more training and retreats to help them in thier spiritual lives, free from distraction while serving the sanctuary in hopes of fostering more priests from the parish. And we also have a bunch of old ladies praying for vocations as well. The Vatican says it's okay to have them, not that it's mandatory to have them. Edited January 23, 2005 by jmjtina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 and they could change their mind anytime they want Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 [quote name='Aluigi' date='Jan 22 2005, 09:38 PM'] it's not about 'putting girls in their place' so much as it is promoting men to become priests. it is a fact that the Church has always used altar boys as a pool for potential priestly vocations. and when there's girls, guys don't see it as anything special. girls are notoriously more prone to volunteer for stuff. [/quote] That's really true. I wonder why that is? Hmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now