Does a Catholic HAVE to believe

[phatcatholic]

on another forum, someone asked me:

--Phat, is the "Co-redemptrix"-ness of mary an "offical" Vactican position or just a belief some catholics hold and others do not?

what would my response be to this?

i post this here b/c i see this possibly turning into a debate on the degrees of infallibility and exactly when we are obliged to give our assent. also, when you respond, please define your vocabularly (for example: ordinary magisterium, extraordinary magisterium, infallibility, ex cathedra, and any other latin phrases)

thanks,
nick

[kateri05]

i humbly submit to the greater knowledge of phatmass but i believe that this has not been declared ex cathedra.
of course, like you said, that doesn't mean we aren't bound by it if its popped up in an encylical somewhere -_-

[StColette]

The new Canon 750 (AD TUENDAM FIDEM)
Pope John Paul II
1989

1. Those things are to be believed by divine and catholic faith which are contained in the word of God as it has been written or handed down by tradition, that is, in the single deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and which are at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn Magisterium of the Church, or by its ordinary and universal Magisterium, which in fact is manifested by the common adherence of Christ's faithful under the guidance of the sacred Magisterium. All are therefore bound to avoid any contrary doctrines.

2. Furthermore, each and everything set forth definitively by the Magisterium of the Church regarding teaching on faith and morals must be firmly accepted and held; namely those things required for the holy keeping and faithful exposition of the deposit of faith; therefore, anyone who rejects propositions which are to be held definitively sets himself against the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Mary Co-Redemptrix Part of the Ordinary Magisterium

From the basis of the doctrinal teachings of the Second Vatican Council alone, the certainty of the doctrinal status of Marian co­redemption is unquestionable. Vatican II repeatedly teaches Mary's unique participation in the redemption of Jesus Christ:
....She devoted herself totally, as handmaid of the Lord, to the person and work of her Son, under and with him, serving the mystery of redemption, by the grace of Almighty God. Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man's salvation through faith and obedience; [50]

And further:

Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in union with her Son unto the cross, where she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, associated herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim which was born of her. [51]

And further by the Council:

She conceived, brought forth, and nourished Christ, she presented Him to the Father in the temple, shared her Son's suffering as He died on the cross. Thus, in a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the work of the Savior in restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace. [52]

Vatican theologian, Jean Galot, confirms the official doctrinal status of Marian co-redemption in light of Vatican II teaching:
Without using the term "co-redemptrix," the Council clearly enunciated the doctrine: a cooperation of a unique kind, a maternal cooperation in the life and work of the Savior, which reaches its apex in the participation in the sacrifice of Calvary, and which is oriented towards the supernatural life of souls…. [53]

And as articulated by Galot in the official Vatican newspaper, L'Osservatore Romano: "The Second Vatican Council, which avoided employing this debated title [Co-redemptrix], nevertheless affirmed with vigor the doctrine it implies. . . ." [54]

Beyond its certain doctrinal presence in Vatican II, Marian coredemption, along with the explicit use of the title co-redemptrix, is a repeated papal teaching spanning the 19th to the 21St century, which again assures its authentic doctrinal status within the Church. Marian co-redemption is repeatedly taught in numerous papal encyclicals and general teachings, as reflected in the following representative citations of official papal teachings: [55]

Leo XIII: "When Mary offered herself completely to God together with her Son in the temple, she was already sharing with Him the painful atonement on behalf of the human race. It is certain, therefore, that she suffered in the very depths of her soul with His most bitter sufferings and with His torments. Finally, it was before the eyes of Mary that the Divine sacrifice for which she had born and nurtured the victim, was to be finished.., we see that there stood by the Cross of Jesus His Mother, who in a miracle of charity, so that He might receive us as her sons, willingly offered Him up to divine justice, dying with Him in her heart, pierced with the sword of sorrow." [56]

St. Pius X: "Owing to the union of suffering and purpose existing between Christ and Mary, she merited to become most worthily the Reparatrix of the lost world, and for this reason, the dispenser of all the favors which Jesus acquired for us by His death and His blood.., and because she was chosen by Christ to be His partner in the work of salvation, she merits for us de congruo as they say, that which Christ merits for us de condigno...." [57]

Benedict XV: "The fact that she was with her Son, crucified and dying, was in accord with the divine plan. To such extent did she surrender her maternal rights over her Son for man's salvation, and immolated Him - in so far as she could - in order to appease the justice of God, that we may rightly say she redeemed the human race together with Christ." [58]

Pius XI: "O Mother of love and mercy who, when thy sweetest Son was consummating the Redemption of the human race on the altar of the cross, did stand next to Him, suffering with Him as a Co-redemptrix... preserve in us, we beseech thee, and increase day by day the precious fruit of His Redemption and the compassion of His Mother." [59]

Pius XII: "It was she who, always most intimately united with her Son, like a New Eve, offered Him on Golgotha to the Eternal Father, together with the sacrifice of her maternal rights and love, on behalf of all the children of Adam, shamed by the latter's shameful fall." [60]

John Paul II: "In her, the many and intense sufferings were amassed in such an interconnected way that they were not only a proof of her unshakable faith, but also a contribution to the redemption of all.... It was on Calvary that Mary's suffering, beside the suffering of Jesus, reached an intensity which can hardly be imagined from a human point of view, but which were mysteriously and supernaturally fruitful for the Redemption of the world. Her ascent of Calvary and her standing at the foot of the cross together with the beloved disciple were a special sort of sharing in the redeeming death of her Son." [61]

John Paul II: "Crucified spiritually with her crucified son (cf. Gal. 2:20), she contemplated with heroic love the death of her God, she 'lovingly consented to the immolation of this victim which she herself had brought forth' (Lumen Gentium, 58) .... In fact at Calvary she united herself with the sacrifice of her Son which led to the foundation of the Church.... In fact, Mary's role as Co­redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son." [62]

We see then both from the criteria of ecumenical council teaching and from repeated papal teaching through encyclical and general instruction, the teaching of Marian co-redemption without question constitutes an authentic doctrine within the authoritative teachings of the Magisterium.

It is sometimes objected that the specific title Co-redemptrix only appears in papal teachings of lesser importance, and therefore does not represent Catholic doctrinal teachings. This would be to artificially separate the title Co-redemptrix, from the theological doctrine of co-redemption, with which the title is essentially linked and derived from. The title refers to the spiritual function which Mary performs in her unique cooperation in Redemption, and therefore to separate the title from the doctrine is to inappropriately and dangerously disconnect the title from its revealed and authoritatively taught doctrinal foundation. In sum, the doctrinal certainty of Marian co-redemption guarantees the doctrinal certainty of Mary Co-redemptrix.

Moreover, the repeated papal use of the Co-redemptrix title by the present pope on five separate occasions [63] should in itself, for the faithful Catholic, immediately remove any question of the doctrinal legitimacy of the title Co-redemptrix (whether personally or prudentially preferable to the individual Catholic or not). On the other hand, the Catholic may conclude contrarily that Pope John Paul II has repeatedly used a Marian title which is in itself doctrinally erroneous, theologically unsound, or intrinsically without Christian doctrinal foundation; however, this appears foreign to the fullest sense of the religious assent of mind and will given to the manifest mind of the pope in non-infallible papal teachings. [64]

In sum, in light of both conciliar and repeated papal teachings, Marian co-redemption and its corresponding title, Mary Co­redemptrix, constitutes an official doctrinal teaching of the Church

see objective 5 : [url="http://www.voxpopuli.org/response_to_7_common_objections_part2.php"]http://www.voxpopuli.org/response_to_7_com...tions_part2.php[/url]

[phatcatholic]

i would like to read an opposing viewpoint on this. why would someone deny that mary as co-redemptrix is infallible teaching?

[cmotherofpirl]

Remember "co" does not mean equal in any sense of the word.

[StColette]

yep Cmom "Co" means "with".

[ironmonk]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jan 19 2005, 10:28 PM'] on another forum, someone asked me:

--Phat, is the "Co-redemptrix"-ness of mary an "offical" Vactican position or just a belief some catholics hold and others do not?

what would my response be to this?

i post this here b/c i see this possibly turning into a debate on the degrees of infallibility and exactly when we are obliged to give our assent. also, when you respond, please define your vocabularly (for example: ordinary magisterium, extraordinary magisterium, infallibility, ex cathedra, and any other latin phrases)

thanks,
nick [/quote]
If you believe that Jesus was in Mary's womb... then you believe that she is Co-Redemtrix.

The word "co" means with. Co-redemtrix means "woman with the redeemer".

People in the US are lost in translation, they ignore that Pilot and Co-pilot are not the same, they try to equate a latin term to english.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[ironmonk]

[quote name='kateri05' date='Jan 19 2005, 11:26 PM'] i humbly submit to the greater knowledge of phatmass but i believe that this has not been declared ex cathedra.
of course, like you said, that doesn't mean we aren't bound by it if its popped up in an encylical somewhere -_- [/quote]
It has by definition of the word.

Every Christian even the non-Catholic ones believes Mary is Co-Redemtrix. They might not understand the meaning of the word, but they believe the meaning.

That's always fun to tell anti-Catholics.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[jezic]

i don't know much about it. I think i remember reading though that Mary said it herself at Medjugorje.

[cmotherofpirl]

That appariation is not approved, and further no Catholic is required to believe anything from any appariation.

[Guest JeffCR07]

If nothing else, it has been universally taught and proclaimed by the Authentic Magisterium of the Church, which means that it takes part in the charism of infallibility,

[ironmonk]

Co-redemptrix is a must to believe.

It is a must because of it's meaning, not because of the word.

The meaning is "woman with the redeemer".

We must believe that Mary had Christ in her. Therefore we must believe in Co-redemptrix.

Even if someone says Mary is not the co-redemptrix [b]but does[/b] believe that Christ was in Mary - [b]then[/b] - they [b]do[/b] believe Mary as co-redemptrix - they just don't understand the word.


The issue with the word is because many baptists try to say that it means equal to Christ - which it does not mean.


God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited January 20, 2005 by ironmonk

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jan 20 2005, 09:43 AM'] If nothing else, it has been universally taught and proclaimed by the Authentic Magisterium of the Church, which means that it takes part in the charism of infallibility, [/quote]
please define "authentic magisterium"

thanks

[Q the Ninja]

Actually if it something's fallible, but taught by the "authentic Magisterium," we owe an ascent of mind and will (we must still follow and believe it).

Vatican II.

Edited January 21, 2005 by Q the Ninja

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='Jan 21 2005, 08:30 AM'] Actually if it something's fallible, but taught by the "authentic Magisterium," we owe an ascent of mind and will (we must still follow and believe it).

Vatican II. [/quote]
The magisterium cannot teach wrong.

Christ promised to guide the Church in all truth, not some. St. John 14

The Church wouldn't be the pillar and foundation of truth if it could teach errors.


God Bless,
ironmonk