Icthus and the rejection of the "apocrypha"

[MichaelFilo]

Sir Icthus,

You are a Reformed dissenter from the Catholic Church (don't get mad this isn't an attack at you, simply something you'd state yourself) and befor eI left PM for a while, we were having an arguement about free will. In my time being gone, I found a passage that would indeed most clearly show that we are given free will. Except there is one big problem, you don't even recognize the book as Holy Writ, so I can't even show it to you and expect you to do it justice without you denouncing a part of the Bible, therefore making your hole a bit deeper.

So I ask you now, what are the grounds fo ryou rejecting the books removed from the Bible during the Reformation. Nothing too long, I'm sure you've talked about this before. The only reason I put it here was because, quite frankly, nothing stays in open-mic, and I see this as possible debate material on PM.

God bless you,
Mikey

[MichaelFilo]

I'm only bumping because it was an important debate to me, and I regretted leaving PM for it.

God bless,

Mikey

[Archangel]

I've often wondered where non-Catholics got their bible (other than from the Catholic Church).

[jezic]

wow i know an answer.

There were two lists of books from the Bible. One was in jerusalem the other in alexandria. I am not sure why but martin luther used the jerusalem canon which was missing the books from the alexandria canon. The alexandria one was older. That is the one that the Catholic church used when they began to assemble the Bible. They held a council there and prayed over everything and after some huge debates about different things much of the Catholic Bible was layed out.

(martin luther also rejected some of the references to purgatory.I think there was a minute one somewhere in Daniel or its related books like Bel and the Dragon.)

[MichaelFilo]

The reason I ask Icthus is because there are MANY reasons protestants reject the bible in it's entirity. And yes, there are many references, in the books that were removed, to many things Catholics believe in. Free Will and purgatory are just two. I want to know his reason. He's mad eit clear how Christians are to know which books go in the bible (by a concensous amongst all Christians), but I never knew WHY he rejects the 10 books in the old testament. While Jezic I can agree that is a likely reason, is that the reason Icthus gave?

Just for kicks, Icthus, the passage on free will is Sirach 15:11-20.

11

Say not: "It was God's doing that I fell away"; for what he hates he does not do.

12

Say not: "It was he who set me astray"; for he has no need of wicked man.

13

Abominable wickedness the LORD hates, he does not let it befall those who fear him.

14

When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice.

15

If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will.

16

There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand.

17

Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.

18

Immense is the wisdom of the LORD; he is mighty in power, and all-seeing.

19

The eyes of God see all he has made; he understands man's every deed.

20

No man does he command to sin, to none does he give strength for lies.



God bless,

Mikey

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='jezic' date='Jan 23 2005, 04:20 PM'] wow i know an answer.

There were two lists of books from the Bible. One was in jerusalem the other in alexandria. I am not sure why but martin luther used the jerusalem canon which was missing the books from the alexandria canon. The alexandria one was older. That is the one that the Catholic church used when they began to assemble the Bible. They held a council there and prayed over everything and after some huge debates about different things much of the Catholic Bible was layed out.

(martin luther also rejected some of the references to purgatory.I think there was a minute one somewhere in Daniel or its related books like Bel and the Dragon.) [/quote]
Right. Catholics use the canon that Jews (including Christ) used called the Septiguint. After Christ's time on earth the Jews got together again and redid their canon only using parts of the canon that they could still find in Hebrew. Since they couldn't find everything in Hebrew out goes 7 books of the Bible.

Imagine if Protestants only used the parts of the New Testament that they could find in the original manuscripts in the Greek. They'd have nothing left.

[Catalyst]

Christ used the torah and the rest of the old testement. He preached fully based on the 10 commendments. So forget about that septigunt. Did you know the roman catholic church ideals have pagan influence?

The bible comming together is a miracle. Simply put. By catholics and orthidox people at the time.

The same reason those books aren't in the bible read is the same reason the gnostic gospel aren't.

[Brother Adam]

You're a joke. Not only don't you know anything about basic Jewish history, ignorant statements such as "the roman catholic church ideals have pagan influence" can be said equally as much for any Protestant Church who baptizes. Baptisms took place in pagan religions long before Christ came to earth. I suppose then Christ taught paganism? Give me a break.

Buy a history book.

[Catalyst]

baptism isn't what I'm talking about. Plus John the baptist was baptising people before Christ. So a make a point revelant to mine.

proof..."So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth"(Acts 19:27).



It was the image making capital of the world and Paul was hurting the business of the idol makers by preaching "there be no gods that are made with hands" (Acts 19:26).
Why must there be so many statues in roman churches.?

"Some therefore cried one thing, and some another for the ASSEMBLY (ekklesia) was confused; and the more part knew not why they were come together" (Acts 19:32).

"But if ye inquire any thing concerning other matters, it shall be determined in a lawful ASSEMBLY (ekklesia)" (Acts 19:39).

"And when he had thus spoken, he dismissed the ASSEMBLY (ekklesia)"(Acts 19:41).


the word ekklesia is the proper word for church. In fact the root word of chruch is circe who was a pagan god.


St. Paul remained 3 whole years preaching and teaching at Ephesus because he know that the GREAT APOSTASY would be centered in that city and that the MOTHER goddess Circe, Cybele or Diana would be substituted for CHRIST. St. Paul told the Ephesian congregation:

"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the congregation of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears" (Acts 20:28-31).

Even when Paul and Barnabas were preaching the gospel to the pagans; the pagans were comparing them to their false gods:

"And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.
And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.
Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people" (Acts 14:11-13).

[spathariossa]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Jan 24 2005, 08:00 PM'] baptism isn't what I'm talking about. Plus John the baptist was baptising people before Christ. So a make a point revelant to mine.

proof..."So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth"(Acts 19:27).



It was the image making capital of the world and Paul was hurting the business of the idol makers by preaching "there be no gods that are made with hands" (Acts 19:26).
Why must there be so many statues in roman churches.?

"Some therefore cried one thing, and some another for the ASSEMBLY (ekklesia) was confused; and the more part knew not why they were come together" (Acts 19:32).

"But if ye inquire any thing concerning other matters, it shall be determined in a lawful ASSEMBLY (ekklesia)" (Acts 19:39).

"And when he had thus spoken, he dismissed the ASSEMBLY (ekklesia)"(Acts 19:41).


the word ekklesia is the proper word for church. In fact the root word of chruch is circe who was a pagan god.


St. Paul remained 3 whole years preaching and teaching at Ephesus because he know that the GREAT APOSTASY would be centered in that city and that the MOTHER goddess Circe, Cybele or Diana would be substituted for CHRIST. St. Paul told the Ephesian congregation:

"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the congregation of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears" (Acts 20:28-31).

Even when Paul and Barnabas were preaching the gospel to the pagans; the pagans were comparing them to their false gods:

"And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.
And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.
Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people" (Acts 14:11-13). [/quote]
Ummm. A statue of Christ isn't Christ. Therefore we didn't make Him with our hands. Just the statue. This whole issue is ridiculous. The simple fact of the matter is protestants are too dense to understand the difference between a symbol and a reality. See, a symbol of Christ would be a statue or a crucifix. And reverencing the statue or the crucifix (like kissing it or something) isn't out of place because you're reverencing what the statue represents. Just like saluting an American flag. You aren't saluting a piece of cloth but what the cloth represents. Now, just as you don't know when something is a symbol, you also don't know when something is real. The eucharist is actually the body and blood of Christ for example.