Opus Dei?

[Sinner]

[quote name='james' date='Feb 15 2005, 07:33 PM'] Faith in Christ serves "a good purpose?" That's very profound. Is that insight Opus Dei influenced? [/quote]
Now James......... ouch. Blatantly mean sarcasm isn't necessary. BTW, your logic regarding the necessity for both positive and negative views is absolutely correct. My problem is when you cite sources that are blatantly anti-JPII, etc.

[Cam42]

[quote]"Such a man is the anti-Christ who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father" (John 2:23).[/quote]

Dude, I think that you mean 1 John 2:23.

However, since you bring up John 2:23......

[quote]Now when he was at Jerusalem, at the pasch, upon the festival day, many believed in his name, seeing his signs which he did. (Douay-Rheims)[/quote]
[quote]cum autem esset Hierosolymis in pascha in die festo multi crediderunt in nomine eius videntes signa eius quae faciebat.[/quote]

Perhaps this is what Rabbi Kreiman is seeing. Thanks for the insight. I think that it speaks to the evangelical nature of the Church and the evangelical nature of the Work.

Cam42

Edited February 16, 2005 by Cam42

[Winchester]

james,
I know an Opus Dei priest. He's a buddy of mine. He has never once intimated the things you say he believes as a member of OD

[james]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 15 2005, 09:00 PM']
You claim that Opus Dei is Talmudic, then you can't back it up.

[/quote]
Actually, It is Rabbi Kreiman who claims that Opus Dei is Talmud influenced, and Opus Dei had no problem with publishing Rabbi Kreiman's statement on their website in which he makes this allegation.

[quote name='Cam42']"...because the only thing that you can find is that a Jew is applying a Christian priniciple to his life.  Which, apparently, is inconceivable to you."[/quote]

Actually, judging from his statements, rabbi Kreiman seems to associate Opus Dei principles with the Talmud, not Christianity.

[quote name='Opus Dei's Official Website']Rabbi Angel Kreiman: "Many of Josemaria Escriva's concepts call to mind the Talmudic tradition and reveal his profound knowledge of the Jewish world."

Rabbi Angel Kreiman contended that Josemaria Escriva's teachings are
strongly rooted in Talmudic traditions about work.[/quote]

[quote name='Cam42']I ask you to read a book, you claim you have, then you dodge that one as well.  James, part of gaining credibility and being taken seriously is being able to discuss this stuff.[/quote]

Another important part of being able to discuss this stuff is not having the discussion closed down. The thread you refer to was locked. I have plenty more to say about Schoeman's book. It was first necessary to lay the groundwork regarding his false representations of Judaism. Unfortunately, I was prevented from discussing the topic any further than that.

Edited February 16, 2005 by james

[Cam42]

James,

Find another bone.....you have sucked the marrow from the Rabbi Kreiman thing. You are promoting a "dead dog," do you enjoy doing that?

[quote]Actually, It is Rabbi Kreiman who claims that Opus Dei is Talmud influenced[/quote]

No, you are the one making the assertion here. I am sure that if Rabbi Kreiman were to be here, he would concur with the majority of this thread. I am sure that he would say that it is the Christian prinicple of work and faith that brings about salvation.

[quote]Another important part of being able to discuss this stuff is not having the discussion closed down...[/quote]

Why is that? Could it be that you refused to discuss the book. Perhaps it was a hi-jack that allowed you to rail the Jewish faith. Perhaps it was the fact that you did not quote the book once in the whole thread. That is why it was shut down.

I don't think that the moderators enjoy having the pre-cursor to Christianity ridiculed. Discussed in an academic and mature way is one thing, but arbitrary statements with no proof are another.

I am the one, if you remember that has asked repeatedly for a couple of simple things. You refuse to to do those things. First, I asked you to prove the link between the Talmud and Opus Dei. You have not done that. Precisely because you can't. Second, I have asked you to discuss the book [u]Salvation is from the Jews: The Role of Judaism in Salvation History from Abraham to the Second Coming.[/u] You have not done that either. You even initiated another thread in which you still didn't do it. I would assume from that, you have either not read the book or you don't understand it well enough to discuss it.

So, here is the thing James. Your assertations and assumptions have no credence. You cannot prove your statements. I am going to go so far as to ask you for links to the Opus Dei website now. I think that it is important to see the whole of the statement from Rabbi Kreiman. Since you won't let this go, I think that we need to look at everything that he has said.

Time to concede that you made a mistake James.

Cam42

[Guest St. Gimp]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 16 2005, 08:38 AM']So, here is the thing James.  Your assertations and assumptions have no credence.  You cannot prove your statements.  I am going to go so far as to ask you for links to the Opus Dei website now.  I think that it is important to see the whole of the statement from Rabbi Kreiman.  Since you won't let this go, I think that we need to look at everything that he has said.[/quote]
You can read the whole article as it once appeared on opusdei.org, thanks to Archive.org's Wayback Machine: [b][url="http://web.archive.org/web/20020213091115/www.opusdei.org/art.php?p=3007"]Rabbi Angel Kreiman Links Escriva's Teaching on Work to the Talmudic Tradition[/url][/b].

It should be noted that the nature of that article is more akin to a press release than to a theological statement of agreement.

[james]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 16 2005, 08:38 AM']





I don't think that the moderators enjoy having the pre-cursor to Christianity ridiculed.  Discussed in an academic and mature way is one thing, but arbitrary statements with no proof are another.

[/quote]
You're being dishonest.

I didn't ridicule anyone's religion.

I did, however, point out that Judaism is not the "pre-cursor to Christianity" as Roy Schoeman states in his book and you continue to falsely assert. I backed my point with Biblical scripture, quotes from both the Jewish and Catholic Encyclopedias, passages from the authoritative Talmudic and Cabalistic texts of Judaism, and quotes from former popes on the matter. If you don't recognize this approach as being academic, then I'll have to ask you to define the term "academic" as you are using it here.

The Old Covenant of the Old Testament is the precursor to Christianity, not Judaism. Judaism is the false religion of the Pharisees.

[quote]"The 'Jewish' religion as it is today traces its descent, without a break, through all the centuries, from the Pharisees". (Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, 1943)[/quote]

[quote]"After the conflicts with Rome (A.D. 66-135) Pharisaism became practically synonymous with Judaism."  (Catholic Encyclopedia)[/quote]

[quote]"With the destruction of the Temple ...Henceforth, Jewish life was regulated by the teachings of the Pharisees.

Pharisaism shaped the character of Judaism & the life & thought of the Jew for all the future." (Jewish Encyclopedia)[/quote]

The religion of the Old Covenant is the precursor to Christianity, not Judaism. Pharisaic Judaism circumvents--makes of no effect--the Old Covenant, as our Lord has said:


[quote]"And the Pharisees and scribes asked him: Why do not thy disciples walk according to the tradition of the ancients,... But (Jesus) answering, said to them: Well did Isaias prophesy of you hypocrites... [b]making the word of God of no effect through your tradition, which you have handed down.[/b] And many such things you do" (Mark 7:5-13)[/quote]

Jesus exposed the Pharisees as not being followers of the religion of the Old Covenant when he said to them:

[quote]'If you are children of Abraham, do the works of Abraham, but as it is, you are seeking to kill Me.'[/quote]

Doctor of the church, John Chrysostom, stated:

[quote]"Jesus said to them, 'If you are children of Abraham, do the works of Abraham, but as it is, you are seeking to kill Me.' Here He repeatedly returned to their murderous design and reminded them of Abraham. He did this because He wanted to detach them from their racial pride and to deflate their excessive conceit, and to persuade them to no longer place their hope of salvation in Abraham or nobility of race, for this was the thing that prevented them from coming to Christ; namely that they taught that the fact of their descent from Abraham sufficed for their salvation" (The Fathers of the Church: St. John Chrysostom)[/quote]

This one statement from church father, John Chrysostom, effectively demolishes Roy Schoeman's book and it's false assertions of racial distinctions regarding salvation.

Edited February 16, 2005 by james

[Cam42]

[quote]Rabbi Angel Kreiman recently contended that Josemaria Escriva's teachings are strongly rooted in Talmudic traditions about work.[/quote]

Not a theological point. It is simply an agreement that one can find sanctification in work. That is a strongly Christian and a strongly Catholic point of view.

[quote]"work is not a punishment, [i]but man's duty,[/i] a blessing from God that allows us to fully enjoy the Sabbath and [u]allows us to be in the image and likeness of God.[/u]" (Rabbi Kreiman)[/quote]

This is very close to several encyclicals of the 20th century.

[quote]It is rather in order to highlight--perhaps more than has been done before--the fact that human work is a key, probably the essential key, to the whole social question, if we try to see that question really from the point of view of man's good. (Laborem Excercens no. 3)[/quote]

[quote]The Church finds in the very first pages of the book of Genesis the source of her conviction that [i]work is a fundamental dimension of human existence on earth.[/i] (LE no. 4)[/quote]

[quote]These truths are decisive for man from the very beginning, and at the same time they trace out the main lines of his earthly existence, both in the state of original justice and also after the breaking, caused by sin, of the Creator's original covenant with creation in man. When man, who had been created "in the image of God...male and female," hears the words: "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it," even though these words do not refer directly and explicitly to work, beyond any doubt they indirectly indicate it as an activity for man to carry out in the world. Indeed, they show its very deepest essence. [u]Man is the image of God partly through the mandate received from his Creator to subdue, to dominate, the earth.[/u] In carrying out this mandate, man, every human being, reflects the very action of the Creator of the universe. (LE no. 4)[/quote]

[quote]Man has to subdue the earth and dominate it, [u]because as the "image of God" he is a person, that is to say, a subjective being capable of acting in a planned and rational way, capable of deciding about himself, and with a tendency to self-realization.[/u] As a person, [i]man is therefore the subject of work. As a person he works, he performs various actions belonging to the work process; independently of their objective content, these actions must all serve to realize his humanity, to fulfill the calling to be a person that is his by reason of his very humanity.[/i] The principal truths concerning this theme were recently recalled by the Second Vatican Council in the Constitution Gaudium et spes, especially in chapter one, which is devoted to man's calling. (LE no. 6)[/quote]

[quote][b][i][u]And yet, in spite of all this toil--perhaps, in a sense, because of it--work is a good thing for man. Even though it bears the mark of a bonum arduum, in the terminology of St. Thomas, this does not take away the fact that, as such, it is a good thing for man.[/u][/i][/b] It is not only good in the sense that it is useful or something to enjoy; it is also good as being something worthy, that is to say, something that corresponds to man's dignity, that expresses this dignity and increases it. If one wishes to define more clearly the ethical meaning of work, it is this truth that one must particularly keep in mind. Work is a good thing for man--a good thing for his humanity--because through work man not only transforms nature, adapting it to his own needs, but he also achieves fulfillment as a human being and indeed, in a sense, becomes "more a human being." (LE no. 9)[/quote]

I suggest that you look at this document and look at the Summa Theologica. It is clear that work is a good thing for man. These prinicples are the basis for St. Josemaria's idea of work. Not the Talmud.

[quote]"Many of Josemaria Escriva's concepts call to mind the Talmudic tradition and reveal his profound knowledge of the Jewish world, as well as his passionate love, as he openly repeated, for two Jews, Jesus and Mary," said Rabbi Kreiman. "Moreover, that which most likens his teachings to Judaism is the vocation of man to serve God through creative work, perfecting creation every day, through perfection of work. (Rabbi Kreiman)[/quote]

This does not imply acceptance of Talmudic prinicples, rather it shows that one particular rabbi sees a similarity between Judaism and Catholicism. Insofar as St. Josemaria understood the Jewish faith (which I assert, you do not), he saw the similarity between the earthly life of Christ, which was a Jewish life and the sancification of work in today's world. There is no conflict there whatsoever.

[quote]I didn't ridicule anyone's religion.[/quote]

Defined as, the act of deriding or treating with contempt, you most certainly have ridiculed the Jewish faith.

[quote]The Old Covenant of the Old Testament is the precursor to Christianity, not Judaism. Judaism is the false religion of the Pharisees.[/quote]

You are simply wrong. That is also a blatantly anti-Semetic statement. Not only is it against the rules governing this forum, but also is one of the most racially hateful things I have heard on a Catholic site. Regardless of how you spin parts of an article, you are misleading and being coy.

THAT is how this is not an academic discussion. You have no interest in listening to a differing point of view, but rather you have an agenda. It is to defame, ridicule and disseminate the Jews.

So, again.....Prove with hard evidence, ie. direct correlation between Talmudic teaching and Opus Dei teaching, that Opus Dei is Talmudic in nature. I have suffiecently proven that Rabbi Kreiman's statements do not reflect Talmudic teaching, but rather his opinion.

You are misreading the article and you are misinterpreting Rabbi Kreiman.

Cam42

[james]

[quote name='Cam42'][quote name='James']The Old Covenant of the Old Testament is the precursor to Christianity, not Judaism. Judaism is the false religion of the Pharisees. [/quote]

You are simply wrong. That is also a blatantly anti-Semetic statement.[/quote]

To deny the truth in the above statement is to deny reason itself. How could a reasonable person believe that Judaism, a religion that blasphemes Christ throughout it's cannon of texts, could be the precursor to Christianity?

What I state here is backed by the Catholic encyclopedia, the Jewish encyclopedia, Biblical scripture, the church fathers and doctors of the church, previous church councils, and Jesus Christ Himself.

Judaism is the religion of apostate Israel: the tradition of the Pharisees which was specifically condemned by Jesus. Judaism is not the precursor to Christianity.


[quote]"The 'Jewish' religion as it is today traces its descent, without a break, through all the centuries, from the Pharisees". (Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, 1943)[/quote]

[quote]"After the conflicts with Rome (A.D. 66-135) Pharisaism became practically synonymous with Judaism."  (Catholic Encyclopedia)[/quote]

[quote]"With the destruction of the Temple ...Henceforth, Jewish life was regulated by the teachings of the Pharisees.

Pharisaism shaped the character of Judaism & the life & thought of the Jew for all the future." (Jewish Encyclopedia)[/quote]

[quote] ...the tenacity and exclusiveness and other characteristics of the Pharisees have been indelibly impressed on all subsequent generations of Judaism... (Catholic encyclopedia)[/quote]


[quote]By their malice, the Scribes and Pharisees and princes of the Jews were a considerable hindrance to the salvation of the people, both because they opposed Christ's doctrine, which was the only way to salvation, and also because their evil ways corrupted the morals of the people.  (St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica) [/quote]



[quote]Judaism, since Christ, is a corruption; indeed, Judas is the image of the Jewish people: their understanding of Scripture is carnal; they bear the guilt for the death of the Savior, for through their fathers they have killed Christ. The Jews held Him; the Jews insulted Him; the Jews bound Him; they crowned Him with thorns and dishonored Him by spitting upon Him; they scourged Him; they heaped abuses upon Him; they hung Him upon a tree.  St. Augustine: AOJ; cf. also JUR vol.III:1536[/quote]

[quote][b]The most eminent writers in the struggle against Judaism were[/b]: Justin, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Cyprian, Athanasius, Gregory of Nyssa, Epiphanius, Chrysostom, Cyril of Alexandria, Isidore of Seville. [b]The attacks of the Fathers were not, of course, aimed at the Israelitic religion of the Old Testament, which was a revealed religion, but at the obstinacy of those Jews who, clinging to the dead letter of the Law, refused to recognize the prophetic spirit of the Old Testament. [/b](Catholic Encyclopedia)[/quote]

[quote]The history of apologetic literature involves the survey of the varied attacks that have been made against the grounds of Christian, Catholic belief. It may be marked off into four great divisions.

The first division is the period from the beginning of Christianity to the downfall of the Roman Empire (A.D. 476).[b] It is chiefly characterized by the twofold struggle of Christianity with Judaism and with paganism[/b]... (Catholic Encyclopedia)[/quote]

[quote]In this constitution of the Apostolate Christ lays the foundation of His Church. [b]But it is not till the action of official Judaism had rendered it manifestly impossible to hope the Jewish Church would admit His claim, that He prescribes for the Church as a body independent of the synagogue[/b] and possessed of an administration of her own. (Catholic encyclopedia)[/quote]

[quote]There are innumerable judgments of the ancient Fathers concerning the falsehood of the Jews...  (Council of Toledo XVI, Canon no.1 "In the Face of Jewish Falsehood")[/quote]


[quote]Have ye wrought your own deliverance, that ye run back again to the dominion ye were under before? It is Another who hath redeemed you, it is Another who hath paid the ransom for you. Observe in how many ways [b]He leads them away from the error of Judaism[/b]; by showing, first, that it was the extreme of folly... (St John Chrysostom) [/quote]

[quote]"Jesus said to them, 'If you are children of Abraham, do the works of Abraham, but as it is, you are seeking to kill Me.' Here He repeatedly returned to their murderous design and reminded them of Abraham. He did this because He wanted to detach them from their racial pride and to deflate their excessive conceit, and to persuade them to no longer place their hope of salvation in Abraham or nobility of race, for this was the thing that prevented them from coming to Christ; namely that they taught that the fact of their descent from Abraham sufficed for their salvation" (St John Chrysostom) [/quote]

[quote]"And the Pharisees and scribes asked him: Why do not thy disciples walk according to the tradition of the ancients,... But (Jesus) answering, said to them: Well did Isaias prophesy of you hypocrites... [b]making the word of God of no effect through your tradition[/b], which you have handed down. And many such things you do" (Mark 7:5-13)[/quote]

Edited February 17, 2005 by james

[james]

10

Edited February 17, 2005 by james

[Cam42]

James,

[b]What does this rant have to do with Opus Dei again? Are you going to prove a link between the two or are you going to continue this ruse as a means to defame the Jewish faith?[/b]

And the Catholic and Jewish Encyclopedias are not infallible documents. They are not even documents that don't contradict themselves. Also, it is from 1910, which precludes any advancement of doctrine from that time FORWARD.

You and I have both used the Catholic Encyclopedia to justify our positions, so we can keep going back and forth using those books. So what.

However, you are reading into these things in a most predjudical light. You are also being blatantly anti-Semetic. You are also showing no charity toward the Jewish faith. That is a sin. I would suggest that you stop.

[quote]The principal items of Church legislation relative to Judaism have been set forth in connection with the history of the Jews. There remains only to add a few remarks which will explain the apparent severity of certain measures enacted by either popes or councils concerning the Jews, or account for the fact that popular hatred of them so often defeated the beneficent efforts of the Roman pontiffs in their regard. (Catholic Encyclopedia, Judaism)[/quote]

[quote]History proves indeed that Church authorities exercised at times considerable pressure upon the Jews to promote their conversion; but it also proves that the same authorities generally deprecated the use of violence for the purpose. It bears witness, in particular, to the untiring and energetic efforts of the Roman pontiffs in behalf of the Jews especially when, threatened or actually pressed by persecution they appealed to the Holy See for protection. It chronicles the numerous protestations of the popes against mob violence against the Jewish race, and thus directs the attention of the student of history to the real cause of the Jewish persecutions, viz., the popular hatred against the children of Israel. (Catholic Encyclopedia, Judaism)[/quote]

So, I think that this shows that I can find in the same book, the Catholic Encyclopedia, that which supports my position, who is right? Well..............

In light of 2000 years of teaching, most illumined by the most recent teachings, which include teachings from the Vatican Council II, Nostra Aetate, I am.

[quote]The Church reproves, as foreign to the mind of Christ, any discrimination against men or harassment of them because of their race, color, condition of life, or religion. On the contrary, following in the footsteps of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, this sacred synod ardently implores the Christian faithful to "maintain good fellowship among the nations" (1 Peter 2:12), and, if possible, to live for their part in peace with all men, so that they may truly be sons of the Father who is in heaven. (NA no.5)[/quote]

[quote]The Church keeps ever in mind the words of the Apostle about his kinsmen: "theirs is the sonship and the glory and the covenants and the law and the worship and the promises; theirs are the fathers and from them is the Christ according to the flesh" (Rom. 9:4-5), the Son of the Virgin Mary. She also recalls that the Apostles, the Church's main-stay and pillars, as well as most of the early disciples who proclaimed Christ's Gospel to the world, sprang from the Jewish people. (NA no.4)[/quote]

[i][b][quote]Furthermore, in her rejection of every persecution against any man, the Church, mindful of the patrimony she shares with the Jews and moved not by political reasons but by the Gospel's spiritual love, decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone. (NA no.4)[/quote][/b][/i]

Illumined by a greater understanding of the truth, all of the bishops of the world ratified this document, therefore making these statements infallible based upon the concept of Ordinary Magisterium.

Cam42

[james]

[quote name='cam42']Illumined by a greater understanding of the truth, all of the bishops of the world ratified this document, therefore making these statements infallible based upon the concept of Ordinary Magisterium.[/quote]

"Nor do we merely desire that Catholics should shrink from the errors of Modernism, but also from the tendencies, or what is called the spirit, of Modernism. Those who are infected by that spirit develop a keen dislike for all that savors of antiquity and become eager searchers after novelties....The law of our forefathers should still be held sacred: [b]let there be no innovation: keep to what has been handed down.[/b] --Pope Benedict XV, Encyclical Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum, November 1, 1914

Edited February 26, 2005 by james

[Cam42]

James,

Nice to see you back.

I would suggest that you check the credentials of the websites that you posted. They are schismatic. Therefore, I will not repsond to them. They are not faithful to Rome. The webmaster is a man named David Hobson. He claims to be a "true Catholic." He has separated himself from Rome and therefore he has no credibility.

You have aligned yourself with his way of thinking therefore, you now have no credibility either. I will make a public statement bringing your entire line of reasoning into dubium. Your thoughts are dubious based upon your sources.

This conversation is now offically over.

Cam42

[james]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 26 2005, 07:35 AM'] James,

Nice to see you back.

I would suggest that you check the credentials of the websites that you posted.  They are schismatic.  Therefore, I will not repsond to them.  They are not faithful to Rome. [/quote]
The websites which I've provided links to offer no content other than the books, "The Kingship of Christ and The Conversion of the Jewish Nation" by Fr. Fahey (Imprimatur: †JACOBUS, Episcopus Fernensis. die 26 januarii 1953)

and the book "The Talmud Unmasked" by Fr. I. B. Pranaitis (IMPRIMATUR:
St. Petersburg, April 13, 1892)

Since both of these books bear the imprimatur of the church, your challenges to credibility ring hollow. The fact that you are dodging church sanctioned books which contradict your position would seem to reflect poorly on your credibility, actually.

[Edited by Ice Princess: links not faithful to the Church]

Edited February 28, 2005 by IcePrincessKRS

[Cam42]

The sites that you list are schismatic. Simple. I didn't say anything about the books. But the websites which are published by St. Gemma Publications are outside the Church.

I dodge nothing, but rather I state fact.

Cam42