Opus Dei?

[Cam42]

[quote]I'm sorry, but you haven't sufficiently explained this statement:
[/quote]

Yes I did. CCC 2591-2597 answers your question about whether Jews can find salvation.

Here is more suport for my position.
[quote]Nevertheless, God, who desires to call all peoples to himself in Christ and to communicate to them the fullness of his revelation and love, "does not fail to make himself present in many ways, not only to individuals, but also to entire peoples through their spiritual riches, of which their religions are the main and essential expression even when they contain 'gaps, insufficiencies and errors.'" (Dominus Jesus #8)[/quote]

[quote]The question which is asked is the following: What relations does the Christian Bible establish between Christians and the Jewish people? The general answer is clear: between Christians and Jews, the Christian Bible establishes many close relations. Firstly, because the Christian Bible is composed, for the greater part, of the “Holy Scriptures” (Rm 1:2) of the Jewish people, which Christians call the “Old Testament”; secondly, because the Christian Bible is also comprised of a collection of writings which, while expressing faith in Christ Jesus, puts them in close relationship with the Jewish Sacred Scriptures. This second collection, as we know, is called the “New Testament”, an expression correlative to “Old Testament”. (The Jewish People And Their Sacred Scriptures In The Christian Bible #1)[/quote]

[quote]The God of the Bible is one who enters into communication with human beings and speaks to them. In different ways, the Bible describes the initiative taken by God to communicate with humanity in choosing the people of Israel. God makes his word heard either directly or though a spokesperson. (The Jewish People And Their Sacred Scriptures In The Christian Bible #23)[/quote]

[quote]The opening of the Letter to the Hebrews perfectly summarises the way that has been traversed: God who “spoke long ago to our ancestors by the prophets”, “has spoken to us by a Son” (Hb 1:1-2), this Jesus of whom the Gospels and the apostolic preaching speak. (The Jewish People And Their Sacred Scriptures In The Christian Bible #23)[/quote]

[quote]If rabbi Kreiman, a man who has knowledge of, but no faith in Christ, can find salvation through his "daily work" as you state, then what purpose does faith in Christ serve?[/quote]

Answered. Again. What purpose does Christ serve? He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

[quote]If it is true that the followers of other religions can receive divine grace, it is also certain that objectively speaking they are in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation. (Dominus Jesus #22)[/quote]

[quote] Indeed, the Church, guided by charity and respect for freedom, must be primarily committed to proclaiming to all people the truth definitively revealed by the Lord, and to announcing the necessity of conversion to Jesus Christ and of adherence to the Church through Baptism and the other sacraments, in order to participate fully in communion with God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. (Dominus Jesus #22)[/quote]

While we must, must, must promote the Salvific message of Christ, of which I have no doubt you agree, it must be done in charity and respect for freedom. That I do not see in your statements. It is clear that you have no respect and are showing no charity toward the Jewish faith. THAT is contrary to a fundamental teaching of the Catholic Church.


As for the Talmud and its role:
[quote][b]Therefore, the sacred books of other religions, which in actual fact direct and nourish the existence of their followers, receive from the mystery of Christ the elements of goodness and grace which they contain.[/b] (Dominus Jesus #8)[/quote]

[quote]The laws contain moral precepts (ethical), juridical (legal), ritual and cultural (a rich assemblage of religious and profane customs). They are of a concrete nature, expressed sometimes as absolutes (e.g., the Decalogue), at other times as particular cases that concretise general principles. They then have the status of precedent and serve as analogies for comparable situations, giving rise to the later development of jurisprudence, called halakah, the oral law, later called the Mishna. Many laws have a symbolic meaning, in the sense that they illustrate concretely invisible values such as equity, social harmony, humanitarianism, etc. Not all laws are to be applied, some are school texts for the formation of future priests, judges and other functionaries; others reflect ideas inspired by the prophetic movement.  They were applied in the towns and villages of the country (Covenant Code), then throughout the kingdoms of Judah and Israel, and later in the Jewish community dispersed throughout the world. (The Jewish People And Their Sacred Scriptures In The Christian Bible #43)[/quote]

I think that speaks to the Talmud.


By the way, since I have answered your question for the fourth time.....answer mine. CAN YOU PROVE TO ME THAT OPUS DEI OBTAINS IT'S TEACHINGS FROM THE TALMUD? I need this with quotes and hard evidence. Thanks.

Cam42

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='james' date='Feb 11 2005, 11:17 AM'] Freemasonry, the sworn enemy of the Catholic church, was born out of the Jewish/Protestant alliance formed in Elizabethan England. [/quote]

It's probably older than that.

[quote]British Israel theory, the vehicle of British Imperialism and Capitalism, the antithesis to the Catholic Kingship of Christ, then arose.[/quote]

Ah yes, of course. I am one of the lost tribe. My blue eyes, mousey head hair and Celtic body hair proves it.

The "antithesis to the Catholic Kingship of Christ". You serious?

[quote]The early Zionists sought recognition from the Vatican for their cause and were rejected by Pius X causing them to then turn to the JudeoMasonic empire of Great Britain resulting in the Balfour Declaration. [/quote]

Aha, ahahaha, ahaha. Yes, we were all "JudeoMasonic". That's why we went to India and Hong Kong. It all makes sense now..

Edited February 12, 2005 by RandomProddy

[james]

[quote name='raphael'][quote]"The impious Talmudic, Cabalistic and other wicked books of the Jews are hereby entirely condemned and they must always remain condemned and prohibited and this law must be perpetuallv observed." Pope Clement VIII [/quote]



There's a slight problem with this. The language is ambiguous. Pope Clement could have been speaking of the Talmudic, Cabalistic, and other wicked books entirely condemned, where entirely would be taken as condemning them collectively, but not necessarily every part of each individual.[/quote]

You have to be kidding. That statement from Pope Clement VIII displays a clarity and directness that is undeniable, and which is hardly in practice any more, perhaps that is why you can't recognize it.

Your comment, in which you accuse pope Clement VIII of ambiguity, is the most ambiguous statement I've read in a long while, at least since Bill Clinton's testimony in the Lewinski matter.

Pope Leo XIII testifies to the nature of Pope Clement VIII's condemnation:

[quote]Although in the Index issued by Pope Pius IV, the Jewish Talmud with all its glossaries, annotations, interpretations and expositions were prohibited: but if published without the name Talmud and without its vile calumnies against the Christian religion they could be tolerated; however, Our Holy Lord Pope Clement VIII in his constitution against impious writings and Jewish books, published in Rome in the year of Our Lord 1592 … proscribed and condemned them: [b]it was not his intention thereby to permit or tolerate them even under the above conditions; [/b]for he expressly and specifically stated and willed, that the impious Talmudic Cabalistic and other nefarious books of the Jews [b]be entirely condemned [/b]and that they [b]must remain always condemned and prohibited[/b], and that his Constitution about these books [b]must be perpetually and inviolably observed.[/b] (Pope Leo XIII, Index Expurgatorius, 1887[/quote]

Edited February 12, 2005 by james

[james]

I'm sorry, Cam42. You still have not answered my question.

If rabbi Kreiman, a man who has knowledge of, but no faith in Christ, can find salvation through his "daily work" as you state, then [b]what purpose does faith in Christ serve?[/b]

[Jaime]

[quote]If rabbi Kreiman, a man who has knowledge of, but no faith in Christ, can find salvation through his "daily work" as you state, then [b]what purpose does faith in Christ serve?[/b]

[/quote]

Oy Vey James. You're beginning to come across like a nudnik. Why are you so farbinsener about the Jews?

Faith in Christ allows us to more fully understand Truth. However, as the Catechism teaches, faith in general still leads us to ultimately finding Truth. In other words, we share the same path but we are on different parts of the path. Without faith we are gornischt.

From the Catechism[quote]158 "Faith seeks understanding": it is intrinsic to faith that a believer desires to know better the One in whom he has put his faith, and to understand better what He has revealed; a more penetrating knowledge will in turn call forth a greater faith, increasingly set afire by love. The grace of faith opens "the eyes of your hearts" to a lively understanding of the contents of Revelation: that is, of the totality of God's plan and the mysteries of faith, of their connection with each other and with Christ, the center of the revealed mystery. "The same Holy Spirit constantly perfects faith by his gifts, so that Revelation may be more and more profoundly understood." In the words of St. Augustine, "I believe, in order to understand; and I understand, the better to believe."[/quote]

We (meaning the Church) believe that the Jews, Muslims and Protestants are on the same path; including Rabbi Kreiman.

Now Gey gezunterheyt. Ok?

[Cam42]

bump

[james]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 12 2005, 02:14 PM']

We (meaning the Church) believe that the Jews, Muslims and Protestants are on the same path; including Rabbi Kreiman.
[/quote]
Those who have faith in Christ and are in communion with His church most definitely are not on the same path as those who practice Judaism--the religion of the Pharisees who executed Christ, which is the religion that rabbi Kreiman practices.

[quote]"The 'Jewish' religion as it is today traces its descent, without a break, through all the centuries, from the Pharisees". (Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, 1943)[/quote]

[quote]"After the conflicts with Rome (A.D. 66-135) Pharisaism became practically synonymous with Judaism."  (Catholic Encyclopedia)[/quote]

So, once again, if an Orthodox Jewish rabbi--a person who practices Pharisaism--can obtain salvation through his "daily work" as Cam42 states, what purpose does faith in Christ serve?

Edited February 13, 2005 by james

[Sinner]

Faith in Christ serves a good purpose....... although a Catholic stance would be we are not saved by Faith alone.

[Jaime]

[quote]Those who have faith in Christ and are in communion with His church most definitely are not on the same path as those who practice Judaism--the religion of the Pharisees who executed Christ, which is the religion that rabbi Kreiman practices.
[/quote]

And here we come to the crucial flaw in your argument James. It was not the Pharisees alone who executed Christ. You did it too. As did everyone who visits this thread.

From CCC 598[quote] In her Magisterial teaching of the faith and in the witness of her saints, the Church has never forgotten that "sinners were the authors and the ministers of all the sufferings that the divine Redeemer endured."389 Taking into account the fact that our sins affect Christ himself,390 the Church does not hesitate to impute to Christians the gravest responsibility for the torments inflicted upon Jesus, a responsibility with which they have all too often burdened the Jews alone:

    We must regard as guilty all those who continue to relapse into their sins. Since our sins made the Lord Christ suffer the torment of the cross, those who plunge themselves into disorders and crimes crucify the Son of God anew in their hearts (for he is in them) and hold him up to contempt. And it can be seen that our crime in this case is greater in us than in the Jews. As for them, according to the witness of the Apostle, "None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." We, however, profess to know him. And when we deny him by our deeds, we in some way seem to lay violent hands on him.391

    Nor did demons crucify him; it is you who have crucified him and crucify him still, when you delight in your vices and sins.392[/quote]


Quit blaming the Jews. The Church is quite clear on who is responsible for the death of Christ. We are to accept our responsibility in the Crucifixion. ESPECIALLY during Lent.

Oh James I know that this will cause you to reproduce some tired line that you've used ad nauseum. But if anyone else is paying attention to this thread, maybe it will help them to reaffirm the fact that prejudice and faith do not come from the same source.

Unless of course you reject the Catechism since it doesn't support your anti-semitism? Which is probably the case since you reject the fact that Opus Dei is in full union with the Church.

[Cam42]

When are you going to stop with Rabbi Kreiman? Now, I think that just about everyone on this site has told you that you are missing the point.

The point of this conversation is to show that Opus Dei is good. It is not to disseminate the Jews. What you have done is reprehensible.

I would ask you again.....I am not interested in Rabbi Kreiman, I know what you think (even if it is wrong and misguided) and I will not and cannot change your mind.

TO PROVE TO THIS PHORUM THAT OPUS DEI IS DIRECTLY LINKED TO THE TALMUD DIRECTLY.

I need direct quotes from Opus Dei that denounce the Catholic faith, based upon Talmudic teachings. If you cannot do that, I think that we have sufficently run the course of this thread as well. I am getting tired of watching you post the same thing over and over and over again. I am starting to think that you may suffer from either involuntary or voluntary doubt on this matter.

[quote]Voluntary doubt about the faith [b]disregards or refuses to hold as true what God has revealed and the Church proposes for belief.[/b] Involuntary doubt refers to [b]hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity.[/b] If deliberately cultivated doubt can lead to spiritual blindness. (CCC 2088)[/quote]

Why do I say this, because you have not affirmed the previous posts from the Catechism as being accurate and truthful. I would assert that you may disagree with them.

So, in all charity, please answer me, from the above questioning. If you cannot or if you will not, that is fine. I will pray that you come to a greater understanding and love of the Jewish people, who share in the salvation of the Father.

Cam42

[Madonna]

I think Opus Dei is wonderful! I am not part of it because I am part of Regnum Christi. I love apostolic movements. The Pope said in Crisis Magazine that apostolic movements are the epitome of what it means to be laity. He was in one himself.

[james]

[quote name='Sinner' date='Feb 13 2005, 05:52 AM'] Faith in Christ serves a good purpose....... [/quote]
Faith in Christ serves "a good purpose?" That's very profound. Is that insight Opus Dei influenced?

[quote name='sinner']...although a Catholic stance would be we are not saved by Faith alone.[/quote]

And neither are we saved by "daily work" alone. So once again, I ask; If an Orthodox Jewish rabbi can find salvation through "daily work" as Cam42 states, what purpose does faith in Christ serve?

And I'll leave you with this bit of scripture to mull over. Perhaps you will see my question in a true perspective.

"Such a man is the anti-Christ who denies the Father and the Son. [b]No one who denies the Son has the Father"[/b] (John 2:23).

Edited February 16, 2005 by james

[james]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 13 2005, 10:45 AM'] Now, I think that just about everyone on this site has told you that you are missing the point.

The point of this conversation is to show that Opus Dei is good.



[/quote]
Actually, you appear to be missing the point.

This thread asks the question, "Opus Dei: Is it good?" which presupposes that dissenting views are encouraged as well as supporting views.

To ask, "Is Opus Dei good?" and allow only supportive views into the discussion would seem dishonest to me.

[Socrates]

Opus Dei does not deny that Christ is necessary for salvation. It teaches that one's work is a means of salvation when offered up to Christ. Faith without works is dead.

i have yet to see a statement from an Opus Dei member denying that Christ is necessary for salvation.

(I realize I'm posting to a brick wall here, though.)

[Cam42]

[quote]To ask, "Is Opus Dei good?" and allow only supportive views into the discussion would seem dishonest to me.[/quote]

No James, no one has a problem discussing whether or not Opus Dei is good. The problem is that you are not discussing that, you are railing on the Talmud and Judaism.

You claim that Opus Dei is Talmudic, then you can't back it up. You use one statement over and over, which has been answered. You just refuse to get it.

I have repeatedly asked you to give a direct link to back up your position. You refuse to do it, because you can't. Because there is no link, because the only thing that you can find is that a Jew is applying a Christian priniciple to his life. Which, apparently, is inconceivable to you.

I ask you to read a book, you claim you have, then you dodge that one as well. James, part of gaining credibility and being taken seriously is being able to discuss this stuff.

The reason there are no dissenting views of Opus Dei is simple. It is a faithful orgainization to the Church. It is also uber-traditional. You made the claim earlier that you are a traditional Catholic. I don't see it. I don't see anything that is in keeping with the Magisterium coming from you. You actually are making statements that are contrary.

As a member of the Work, I have no problem discussing the Prelature and I have no problem answering questions about it. What I have a problem with is when one goes on the attack with arbitrary statements and refuses to lend proof to those statements.

So, if you can't prove your statements, then you must concede. Opus Dei is good.

Cam42

N.B. Christ is necessary for salvation, but that has been established for 2000 years.

Edited February 16, 2005 by Cam42