Apotheoun Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 [quote name='james' date='Feb 28 2005, 10:10 PM'] I have not interpreted the comments of previous popes Clement VIII or Leo XIII. I have quoted their statements and suggested that your position is in contradiction with theirs. You state that my interpretation of their words is irrational. Given the fact that I haven't offered an interpretation it would seem that it is your allegation against me that is irrational. In any case, it's clear now that you are avoiding popes Clement VIII and Leo XIII's condemnations of the Talmud and are focusing your attention on me which would tend to further weaken your postion. Feel free to address this papal condemnation. [/quote] Once again I must emphasize that if everything in the Talmud is innately evil, it follows that you must hold that murder is morally acceptable, because murder is condemned in Sanhedrin 4:5. God bless, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Mar 1 2005, 12:19 AM'] Once again I must emphasize that if everything in the Talmud is innately evil, it follows that you must hold that murder is morally acceptable, because murder is condemned in Sanhedrin 4:5. God bless, Todd [/quote] Sure, and Al Capone gave to charity. Hitler was able to calculate that 2+2=4. Of what value are these things? Somehow I don't believe that you would come to Hitler's defense in a debate even though there must have been something good that he did. One could probably find some good quality in the worst of evils, but what of it? So, you won't address the papal condemnation of the Talmud. Edited March 1, 2005 by james Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 [quote]Sure, and Al Capone gave to charity.[/quote] No, but he went to Mass every week and was a good Catholic...according to your defintions. Give me a break.... Cam42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 What does this have to do with Opus Dei again? Oh yeah, James hi-jacked this thread a long time ago.....My vote....Opus Dei is good and I am Opus Dei. Cam42 P.S. The Talmud hi-jack for those who don't want to read anti-Semite rhetoric, is simply this: James doesn't like the Jews. The rest of the Catholic Church, including the Pope, does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 [quote name='james' date='Feb 28 2005, 10:32 PM'] So, you won't address the papal condemnation of the Talmud. [/quote] Why would I need to respond to those quotations? You have supplied no reference information to support the quotations, nor have you provide any context for the statements made; moreover, the quotations are not dogmatic pronouncements and so they are not irrevocable (regardless of the language used -- another example of a document that is often mistakenly invested with infallible authority is [u]Quo Primum[/u] of Pius V). You seem to confuse dogmatic and doctrinal pronouncements of the Pope, with disciplinary and canonical norms. I am compelled to reiterate my original point: since murder is condemned in Sanhedrin 4:5, and you hold that everything said in the Talmud is evil, you must hold that murder is morally licit. Now, if you hold that murder is immoral, it follows that you agree with Sanhedrin 4:5 in the Talmud, and you yourself would be in violation of the decrees of the Popes you are quoting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jan 19 2005, 01:01 PM'] I didn't find my option in the poll: "I am not in Opus Dei, but Opus Dei is good." Thus, my vote is for the above option. God bless, Todd [/quote] I agree with you. I'm not officially Opus Dei, but I support thier cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Feb 28 2005, 10:46 PM'] I am compelled to reiterate my original point: since murder is condemned in Sanhedrin 4:5, and you hold that everything said in the Talmud is evil, you must hold that murder is morally licit. Now, if you hold that murder is immoral, it follows that you agree with Sanhedrin 4:5 in the Talmud, and you yourself would be in violation of the decrees of the Popes you are quoting. [right][snapback]537536[/snapback][/right] [/quote] This is a remarkable piece of sophistry, "church scholar." I have not stated that "everything said in the Talmud is evil." I have agreed with the popes who themselves have stated that the Talmud is evil. Stating that the Talmud is evil is entirely different than stating that every word the Talmud contains, including "and" and "the" is evil. You know this, of course. You're just grasping for loopholes in the tradition of ... Talmud. Feel free to object to what the popes have stated on the matter and play Judaic apologetics, but don't call it Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick777 Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 [quote name='Timothy' date='Mar 18 2005, 12:37 PM']I agree with you. I'm not officially Opus Dei, but I support thier cause. [right][snapback]549736[/snapback][/right] [/quote] ditto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 Why was this brought back up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Domini Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 I dont know but earlier this week here in the UK there was a documentary on the Work called 'Opus Dei and the Da Vinci code' perhaps that rekindled some interest Any of the British based phatpham get a look in? On the whole I thought the show was quite fair to Opus Dei and whilst the presenter evidently was a secularist and used the fallacious terms 'conservative' and 'liberal' he was generally respectful and showed how nonsensical much of what Mr Brown wrote in his bestselling book. It is odd that people actually go to Orme Court, UK seeking the fabled albino monk For those who are interested check this out [url="http://www.opusdei.co.uk/art.php?w=20&p=11444"]Channel 4 documentary on Opus Dei [/url] from www.opusdei.co.uk. INXC Myles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Just Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 i think people tend to put too much faith into these orders and not enough into the Church itself. Like on EWTN, many of the fransiscans cant stop talking about the fransiscan order or fransiscan university for that matter. same with Opus Dei... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Dec 14 2005, 07:31 AM']Why was this brought back up? [right][snapback]824817[/snapback][/right] [/quote] It wouls seem that james has returned after a long absence. (read banning) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Domini Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 [quote]i think people tend to put too much faith into these orders and not enough into the Church itself. Like on EWTN, many of the fransiscans cant stop talking about the fransiscan order or fransiscan university for that matter. same with Opus Dei... [/quote] I dont know if thats fair Akalyte. I dont think its a question of placing too much faith in one's order or personal prelature in the case of Opus Dei, after all these organisations make up [i]the body[/i] too. Its a question of adopting the charism of the group of rejoicing in the spirit of the founder. Its natural for the Franciscans on EWTN to act as they do. Their Masses are according to the Franciscan calender of saints and as Franciscans it'd be odd if they didnt. If EWTN was run by Dominicans you'd get the same from the Blackfriars' perspective. What it is, is at once the joy of one's vocation, and the inherent draw one feels towards the figures of those who have walked those same steps. To become a Franciscan, for instance, one obviously would have some sense of affection for St Francis of Assisi. His personality, his way, would be attractive to you as an individual and those who lived it out well e.g. St Bonvanture, St Bernardine of Sienna of St Lawrence of Brindisi would be exemplar to you to. When you put on that habit you are taking on a unique charism, a way of life, that will define you and everything you do and the Franciscan Friars' loyalty to that charism is anything but a hinderance to Mother Church (which I'm sure you'll agree on). Yes, we are not the property of Cephas of Paul or anyone else but only Christs but yet even the Apostle tells those to whom he writes that they should emulate him as he became a Father to them through the gospel. Likewise, those who adopt the charism of a St Josemaria Escriva or St Mother Teresa become their spiritual offspring and thus I think its only normal that they have a deep attachment to those figures and those who share their sentiments. Thats just human, we instinctively gravitate towards those who share our ideals. However, I dont believe that attached to something like Regnum Christi lessens your commitment to the Church Universal. Sure they can seem exclusivist (and maybe sometimes they are) but thats because this is the way God has called them to live out their Christianity under the wings of His Bride. I've never met anyone who was part of Opus Dei, for instance, who did not have a deep and profound love for the Church. Indeed, St Josemaria taught that Christ, the Pope and Mary were the pilars of the spiritual life. They simply want to serve the Church in the same manner as their founder and in that I do not percieve anything inherently problematic. INXC Myles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Just Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 [quote name='Myles' date='Dec 14 2005, 10:36 AM']I dont know if thats fair Akalyte. I dont think its a question of placing too much faith in one's order or personal prelature in the case of Opus Dei, after all these organisations make up [i]the body[/i] too. Its a question of adopting the charism of the group of rejoicing in the spirit of the founder. Its natural for the Franciscans on EWTN to act as they do. Their Masses are according to the Franciscan calender of saints and as Franciscans it'd be odd if they didnt. If EWTN was run by Dominicans you'd get the same from the Blackfriars' perspective. What it is, is at once the joy of one's vocation, and the inherent draw one feels towards the figures of those who have walked those same steps. To become a Franciscan, for instance, one obviously would have some sense of affection for St Francis of Assisi. His personality, his way, would be attractive to you as an individual and those who lived it out well e.g. St Bonvanture, St Bernardine of Sienna of St Lawrence of Brindisi would be exemplar to you to. When you put on that habit you are taking on a unique charism, a way of life, that will define you and everything you do and the Franciscan Friars' loyalty to that charism is anything but a hinderance to Mother Church (which I'm sure you'll agree on). Yes, we are not the property of Cephas of Paul or anyone else but only Christs but yet even the Apostle tells those to whom he writes that they should emulate him as he became a Father to them through the gospel. Likewise, those who adopt the charism of a St Josemaria Escriva or St Mother Teresa become their spiritual offspring and thus I think its only normal that they have a deep attachment to those figures and those who share their sentiments. Thats just human, we instinctively gravitate towards those who share our ideals. However, I dont believe that attached to something like Regnum Christi lessens your commitment to the Church Universal. Sure they can seem exclusivist (and maybe sometimes they are) but thats because this is the way God has called them to live out their Christianity under the wings of His Bride. I've never met anyone who was part of Opus Dei, for instance, who did not have a deep and profound love for the Church. Indeed, St Josemaria taught that Christ, the Pope and Mary were the pilars of the spiritual life. They simply want to serve the Church in the same manner as their founder and in that I do not percieve anything inherently problematic. INXC Myles [right][snapback]825056[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I see, that makes sense. I guess i just needed to clear that up, it just confused me.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 I would like to add my vote but the option wasn't available that I wanted. I choose No, but I like them! : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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