Cam42 Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 Oops, sorry, I misread the post....my bad. BTW, I assume that you are a Cooperator? I am a supernumerary. If you ever want to chat, PM me. Cam42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Domini Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 Will do man, will do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 [quote name='james' date='Feb 28 2005, 12:47 AM'] (The following information about Opus Dei's rabbis, was taken directly from Opus Dei's Official Website on January 31, 2002) [/quote] It is important to note that the article by Rabbi Kreiman expresses his opinion about the nature of certain elements within the teaching of St. Josemaria Escriva, and so it clearly is not an official statement of Opus Dei itself. Nevertheless, the fact that both the founder and members of Opus Dei and Rabbi Kreiman hold that "work is not a punishment, but man's duty, a blessing from God that allows us to fully enjoy the Sabbath and allows us to be in the image and likeness of God," is not a radical or heretical notion. Clearly Catholic do not believe that the Talmud is inspired, and of course there are things in the Talmud that are not compatible with the Catholic faith, but there are also innocuous things in the Talmud that are reflections of the truth based on the light of natural reason alone. Thus, it is best not to overreact and hold that the Talmud in its entirety is somehow innately evil, because clearly it is not. Moreover, it isn't wise to take one article on a website as proof of some massive conspiracy against the doctrines of the Catholic faith. God bless, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 Phatmasser777 states[quote] How could a reasonable person believe that Judaism, a religion that blasphemes Christ throughout it's cannon of texts, could be the precursor to Christianity?[/quote] From the [url="http://www.ajc.org/Interreligious/SpeechesDetail.asp?did=1279&pid=2233"]American Jewish Committee Website[/url] We have this quote [quote]late Cardinal John O'Connor stated his conviction that Pope John Paul II "is unselfconsciously shaped by his fundamental gratitude for Judaism as the very root of his Catholicism ... (and) ... he seems simply to assume that his love for (Jews) and for Judaism itself is so strong that his good intentions should be recognized..."[/quote] Also in the same article [quote]Already in Mainz in November 1980 he addressed the Jewish community as "the people of God of the Old Covenant,[/quote] Phatmasser I know you will probably not acknowledge these quotes. I doubt that you would come out and say that the Holy father was "not a reasonable man" but that is what you are saying if you continue to defend this obviously anti-semitic argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Feb 28 2005, 09:04 AM'] Clearly Catholic do not believe that the Talmud is inspired, and of course there are things in the Talmud that are not compatible with the Catholic faith, but there are also innocuous things in the Talmud that are reflections of the truth based on the light of natural reason alone. Thus, it is best not to overreact and hold that the Talmud in its entirety is somehow innately evil, because clearly it is not. [/quote] [quote]"The impious Talmudic, Cabalistic and other [b]wicked[/b] books of the Jews are hereby entirely condemned and they must always remain condemned and prohibited and this law must be perpetuallv observed." Pope Clement VIII[/quote] [quote]Although in the Index issued by Pope Pius IV, the Jewish Talmud with all its glossaries, annotations, interpretations and expositions were prohibited: but if published without the name Talmud and without its vile calumnies against the Christian religion they could be tolerated; however, Our Holy Lord Pope Clement VIII in his constitution against impious writings and Jewish books, published in Rome in the year of Our Lord 1592 … proscribed and condemned them: it was not his intention thereby to permit or tolerate them even under the above conditions; for he expressly and specifically stated and willed, that the impious Talmudic Cabalistic and other [b]nefarious[/b] books of the Jews be entirely condemned and that they must remain always condemned and prohibited, and that his Constitution about these books must be perpetually and inviolably observed. Pope Leo XIII, Index Expurgatorius, 1887[/quote] Apothenoun, your position that "it is best not to overreact and hold that the Talmud in its entirety is somehow innately evil, because clearly it is not" is in clear contradiction to the position of Popes Clement VIII and Leo XIII who descibe the Talmud as "nepharious" and "wicked" and condemned the Talmud and ordered that the condemnation be perpetually and inviolably observed. Edited March 1, 2005 by james Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 (edited) [quote name='hot stuff'][quote]Already in Mainz in November 1980 he addressed the Jewish community as "the people of God of the Old Covenant,[/quote] Phatmasser I know you will probably not acknowledge these quotes. I doubt that you would come out and say that the Holy father was "not a reasonable man" but that is what you are saying if you continue to defend this obviously anti-semitic argument.[/quote] I'll gladly respond to these quotes. It's not necessary for me to accept every rhetorical statement which is made by the pope particularly when those statements are unreasonable. It is unreasonable to point to those who practice Orthodox Judaism today and call them the "people of the Old Covenant." The Israelites were the people of the Old Covenant and it is impossible 2000 years after the diaspora to prove a genetic connection between a person who practices Orthodox Judaism today and the Israelites of the Old Covenant. The majority of Jews today are descendants of Khazar tribes who converted to Judaism centuries after the diaspora. That is beside the point that Orthodox Judaism is not the religion of the Old Covenant. It is the continuation of the Pharasaic tradition which circumvents the Old Covenant religion. [quote name='American Jewish Committee']late Cardinal John O'Connor stated his conviction that Pope John Paul II "is unselfconsciously shaped by his fundamental gratitude for Judaism as the very root of his Catholicism ... (and) ... he seems simply to assume that his love for (Jews) and for Judaism itself is so strong that his good intentions should be recognized..."[/quote] Why on earth should I be concerned about what the AJC--one of the world's greatest enemies of traditional Christianity--has to say about what Cardinal O'Conner has to say about what John Paul II has to say about Judaism? Orthodox Judaism is not the root of Catholicism regardless of what the AJC, Cardinal O'Conner, and John Paul II have to say about it. Edited March 1, 2005 by james Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 [quote name='james' date='Feb 28 2005, 06:00 PM'] Apothenoun, your position that "it is best not to overreact and hold that the Talmud in its entirety is somehow innately evil, because clearly it is not" is in clear contradiction to the position of Popes Clement VIII and Leo XIII who descibe the Talmud as "nepharious" and "wicked" and condemned the Talmud and ordered that the condemnation be perpetually and inviolably observed. [/quote] The Talmud condemns murder as immoral (cf. Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:5). If I follow your line reasoning, i.e., that everything in the Talmud is evil; it follows that I must hold that the condemnation of murder (because it is found in the Talmud), is an evil thing, and clearly that is not the case. God bless, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 [quote]Why on earth should I be concerned about what the AJC--one of the world's greatest enemies of traditional Christianity--has to say about what Cardinal O'Conner has to say about what John Paul II has to say about Judaism?[/quote] Quite right James (sorry about the moniker mixup. You and Phatmasser are the same height) You shouldn't be concerned about what the late cardinal or the Holy Father has to say on the subject. Unless of course you're Catholic. But that aside, you asked if there were any reasonable people who would say tjat judaism was the precursor to Christianity. Is the Holy Father not "reasonable"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Feb 28 2005, 10:04 PM'] The Talmud condemns murder as immoral (cf. Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:5). [/quote] Actually, the Talmud allows Jews to murder and steal from non-Jews without punishment: Tractate Sanhedrin, Folio 57a [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Feb 28 2005, 10:04 PM'] If I follow your line reasoning, i.e., that everything in the Talmud is evil; it follows that I must hold that the condemnation of murder (because it is found in the Talmud), is an evil thing, and clearly that is not the case.[/quote] Your argument is dishonest. I have not offered my own reasoning. I have repeated the condemnation of the Talmud by former popes Clement VIII and Leo XIII. You may respond to their statements if you disagree with them, as it appears that you do. [quote]"The impious Talmudic, Cabalistic and other wicked books of the Jews are hereby entirely condemned and they must always remain condemned and prohibited and this law must be perpetuallv observed." Pope Clement VIII[/quote] [quote]Although in the Index issued by Pope Pius IV, the Jewish Talmud with all its glossaries, annotations, interpretations and expositions were prohibited: but if published without the name Talmud and without its vile calumnies against the Christian religion they could be tolerated; however, Our Holy Lord Pope Clement VIII in his constitution against impious writings and Jewish books, published in Rome in the year of Our Lord 1592 … proscribed and condemned them: it was not his intention thereby to permit or tolerate them even under the above conditions; for he expressly and specifically stated and willed, that the impious Talmudic Cabalistic and other nefarious books of the Jews be entirely condemned and that they must remain always condemned and prohibited, and that his Constitution about these books must be perpetually and inviolably observed. Pope Leo XIII, Index Expurgatorius, 1887[/quote] Edited March 1, 2005 by james Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Feb 28 2005, 10:09 PM'] But that aside, you asked if there were any reasonable people who would say tjat judaism was the precursor to Christianity. Is the Holy Father not "reasonable"? [/quote] In this matter, I don't believe that he is. I've offered the reasons why. Here they are again. It's not necessary for me to accept every rhetorical statement which is made by the pope particularly when those statements are unreasonable. It is unreasonable to point to those who practice Orthodox Judaism today and call them the "people of the Old Covenant." The Israelites were the people of the Old Covenant and it is impossible 2000 years after the diaspora to prove a genetic connection between a person who practices Orthodox Judaism today and the Israelites of the Old Covenant. The majority of Jews today are descendants of Khazar tribes who converted to Judaism centuries after the diaspora. That is beside the point that Orthodox Judaism is not the religion of the Old Covenant. It is the continuation of the Pharasaic tradition which circumvents the Old Covenant religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 James we all get it, you don't like the Jews. We will pray for you anyway. Cam42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 [quote name='james' date='Feb 28 2005, 09:00 PM'] Actually, the Talmud allows Jews to murder and steal from non-Jews without punishment: Tractate Sanhedrin, Folio 57a [/quote] Here is a response to some of your comments by Rabbi David J. B. Krishef: [url="http://jewish.com/askarabbi/askarabbi/askr4942.htm"]Ask a Rabbi[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 [quote name='james' date='Feb 28 2005, 09:00 PM'] Your argument is dishonest. I have not offered my own reasoning. I have repeated the condemnation of the Talmud by former popes Clement VIII and Leo XIII. You may respond to their statements if you disagree with them, as it appears that you do. [/quote] No, I'm not being dishonest. I'm simply pointing out that your interpretation of the comments made by previous Popes is irrational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinner Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 Ummmmmm ......... I bet in another 7 pages james will change his mind. :argue: :knockout: :hammer: :squash: :box: :swords: ok......sorry .......... :rotfl: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Feb 28 2005, 11:34 PM'] No, I'm not being dishonest. I'm simply pointing out that your interpretation of the comments made by previous Popes is irrational. [/quote] I have not interpreted the comments of previous popes Clement VIII or Leo XIII. I have quoted their statements and suggested that your position is in contradiction with theirs. You state that my interpretation of their words is irrational. Given the fact that I haven't offered an interpretation it would seem that it is your allegation against me that is irrational. In any case, it's clear now that you are avoiding popes Clement VIII and Leo XIII's condemnations of the Talmud and are focusing your attention on me which would tend to further weaken your postion. Feel free to address this papal condemnation. [quote]"The impious Talmudic, Cabalistic and other wicked books of the Jews are hereby entirely condemned and they must always remain condemned and prohibited and this law must be perpetuallv observed." Pope Clement VIII[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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