Opus Dei?

[Cam42]

James,

Simply because a writing has an imprimatur doesn't mean that a schismatic cannot apply it. The SSPX, SSPV and CMRI use many documents that have imprimaturs, but that doesn't mean that the SSPX et al. are valid orgainizations.

While the book or books may have no errors, the way that they are interpreted might very well. I still call into question your credibility based upon the websites as a whole.

Done.

Cam42

[james]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 26 2005, 10:48 PM'] The sites that you list are schismatic.  Simple.  I didn't say anything about the books.  But the websites which are published by St. Gemma Publications are outside the Church.

I dodge nothing, but rather I state fact.

Cam42 [/quote]
The websites which I've listed contain nothing other than books with the church inprimatur. Unless you can prove that it's possible for truth to become error due to a superficial association, you have no argument.

Edited February 27, 2005 by james

[Cam42]

St. Gemma Web Publications is a hosted by a schismatic Catholic. The intent of St. Gemma Web Publicaitons is to disseminate schismatic views toward the Catholic Church.

I can prove that the website is run by a schismatic, precisely because I know the webmaster. I know the intent, I know the reasoning. Again, I suggest that you advise your credentials. David Hobson has separated himself from the Roman Catholic Church.

The websites are of dubious production.

Cam42

[james]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 27 2005, 09:06 AM'] St. Gemma Web Publications is a hosted by a schismatic Catholic. The intent of St. Gemma Web Publicaitons is to disseminate schismatic views toward the Catholic Church.

I can prove that the website is run by a schismatic, precisely because I know the webmaster. I know the intent, I know the reasoning. Again, I suggest that you advise your credentials. David Hobson has separated himself from the Roman Catholic Church.

The websites are of dubious production.

Cam42 [/quote]
Maybe you'll consider commenting on the books that I've referenced rather than avoiding them and commenting on one individual who happens to host these books on their website.

1. "The Kingship of Christ and The Conversion of the Jewish Nation" by Fr. Fahey (Imprimatur: †JACOBUS, Episcopus Fernensis. die 26 januarii 1953)


2. "The Talmud Unmasked" by Fr. I. B. Pranaitis (IMPRIMATUR:
St. Petersburg, April 13, 1892)

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='james' date='Feb 27 2005, 11:33 AM'] Maybe you'll consider commenting on the books that I've referenced rather than avoiding them and commenting on one individual who happens to host these books on their website.

1. "The Kingship of Christ and The Conversion of the Jewish Nation" by Fr. Fahey (Imprimatur: †JACOBUS, Episcopus Fernensis. die 26 januarii 1953)


2. "The Talmud Unmasked" by Fr. I. B. Pranaitis (IMPRIMATUR:
St. Petersburg, April 13, 1892) [/quote]
The fact that a book has an [i]imprimatur[/i] does not mean that everything asserted by the author of the book is Catholic doctrine; instead, it simply means that there is nothing in the book that is [i]per se[/i] harmful to the faith.

I have not read either of the books you that have referenced, and so I cannot judge their orthodoxy or lack thereof, but the most that can be said about them is that they represent the views of their authors, and of them alone, except in those instances when what they said agrees with the dogmatic and doctrinal teachings of the Church's Magisterium. If I have time after my mid-terms I will try to take a look at the weblinks that you've provided.

God bless,
Todd

[Apotheoun]

Why may I ask is there a debate about the validity or lack of validity of the Jewish religion in a thread on Opus Dei?

[Cam42]

[quote]Maybe you'll consider commenting on the books that I've referenced rather than avoiding them and commenting on one individual who happens to host these books on their website.[/quote]

Why do I want to talk about Judaism? Why do I want to discuss Judaism? This has nothing to do with Judaism....rather it has everything to do with Opus Dei.

I don't wish to discuss the Jewish religion to the extent of enabling you to continue to defame the Chosen People of God.

Cam42

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 26 2005, 11:48 PM'] The sites that you list are schismatic. Simple. I didn't say anything about the books. But the websites which are published by St. Gemma Publications are outside the Church.

I dodge nothing, but rather I state fact.

Cam42 [/quote]
I have edited out the links because they refer back to a schismatic website (though they themselves appear to contain only the books). I have left the publication information for anyone interested in the books.

[Cam42]

That is all I asked....thanks....fidelity to Rome is an important thing.

Cam42

[james]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Feb 27 2005, 02:41 PM'] Why may I ask is there a debate about the validity or lack of validity of the Jewish religion in a thread on Opus Dei?

[/quote]
(The following information about Opus Dei's rabbis, was taken directly
from Opus Dei's Official Website on January 31, 2002)

[quote][b]Rabbi Angel Kreiman Links Escriva's Teaching on Work to the Talmudic Tradition[/b]

Rabbi Angel Kreiman: "Many of Josemaria Escriva's concepts call to mind
the Talmudic tradition and reveal his profound knowledge of the Jewish
world."

Rabbi Angel Kreiman contended that Josemaria Escriva's teachings are
strongly rooted in Talmudic traditions about work. Kreiman, who is the
international vice president of the World Council of Synagogues, made
his remarks in an address to a congress in Rome on Opus Dei's founder.
The rabbi said that he was pleased about the interreligious prayer
meeting for peace occurring January 24 in Assisi. Such meetings, he
said, "help us to remember often that we all have the same common father."

The Rabbi, who is a Cooperator of Opus Dei, said he wanted to
demonstrate his special affection for the organization founded by
Josemaria Escriva.

"Opus Dei members helped me, right from the beginning of my (rabbinic) seminary studies, to persevere in my vocation," he [Kreiman] said, "and I have also seen them do it with other rabbis, for which I am deeply grateful."

[url="http://web.archive.org/web/20020213091115/www.opusdei.org/art.php?p=3007"]http://web.archive.org/web/20020213091115/.../art.php?p=3007[/url][/quote]

Edited February 28, 2005 by james

[Myles Domini]

James you appear to be profoundly misunderstanding the spirit of the Work. My spiritual director is a priest of Opus Dei and I have had the pleasure of knowing many members of the Work for sometime now. As you identified Opus Dei has a place for non-Catholic collaborators and this typifies Opus Dei's way of approaching ecumenism.

When Opus Dei speaks of ecumenism my sentiments are that mainly what the prelature has in mind is this brand of co-operation with non-Catholics who share our understanding of right and wrong on certain issues i.e. the sanctity of all human life from conception to natural death. Opus Dei understands that politicians arent inclined to listen to things simply because the Holy See tells us they are wrong and that it is often neccessary to campaign for the defence of natural law with other members of society who have similar views (who might not be Catholic in all cases). Accordingly, Opus Dei retains a close relationship with non-Catholics who share the Catholic understanding of natural law i.e. Jews.

Opus Dei members are also very kind people James. As I said I am not a member but my spiritual director is and they have allowed me to take part in many of their formative activities, which has helped my Catholicism immensely. Members of Opus Dei do not refuse their friendship to people simply because they are not part of the prelature or baptised Catholics. They put out into deep and drag in a catch of all sorts. Naturally if they can make a convert or two they will. However, if they cant they wont simply pass the person on. In the eyes of Opus Dei friendship is an important virtue no matter what background one's friend is. Genuine Christian love does not bear grudge's as St Paul tells us in 1 Cor. 13. Indeed, it is genuine love that makes us want to evangelise since having seen the love of God we want others to come into their inheritance.

[james]

[quote name='Myles' date='Feb 28 2005, 03:18 AM'] Accordingly, Opus Dei retains a close relationship with non-Catholics who share the Catholic understanding of natural law i.e. Jews.

[/quote]
Rabbinic Jews like rabbi Kreiman do not share the Catholic view of the natural law. If they did they would be in violation of Talmudic law: the halacha, which all Orthodox Jews are bound by.

I suggest that you research the Talmud if you believe that the Catholic and Judaic understanding of natural law are the same. They are, in fact, diametrically opposed.

[Myles Domini]

Excuse me, my friend, for not showing complete correctness is my terminology. I must confess that I am ignorant of the Jewish talmudic tradition for the most part. However, the point I am trying to get across remains. The fact is there are many battles in society that the Church must fight i.e. the current battle to defend the right of Terri Schiavo to live that she cannot fight alone in a society where the people in power only care for the majority vote. For that reason the Church at times needs to reach out to Protestants, Jews, Muslims etc. and work together with them in order to remind the government that they will loose the support of the electorate if they go ahead with certain acts that violate the natural law. Thats not abandoning Catholicism thats simply a sensible way to approach multiculturalism until, of course, Christendom is revived by the New Evangelisation.

In that entire post all you did was attack one young man's ignorance, not the validity of Opus Dei's approach to ecumenism--which is far better than the extreme liberalism of some 'ecumenists' who would see the Church become something akin to a communion of parties ala Anglicanism. I do not like to make judgements because woe to me if someone was to sit in judgement over the sins of my life. I would die of shame. Nonetheless, I think you need to take a step back and realise that even if you give over your body to be burnt and have faith that can move mountains without the supernatural virtue of love you have nothing. You seem to be a very knowledgeable, very honest individual. However, at the same time you seem to be blinded by your anger.

Opus Dei is far from heretical and the majority of its critics are left wing dissidents from the magisterium. What she is, is faithful to the magisterial teaching of the Holy See, attempting to reach out to people and convert them by any means possible but offering them real genuine assistance whatever the weather. Opus Dei does not see non-Catholics as enemies, just as the great Catholic missionaries of the past did not see the pagans and Protestants of Europe as enemies. They saw them as a people in need of the love of Christ and tried to present them with that love. If the people we reach out to as Catholics do not want a share in God's estate then thats fine, we can do little more than pray for them, but we are not at liberty to hate them. We are not at liberty to hate anybody. We are to love our enemies, bless those that curse us and do good to them that hate us. Indeed, Jesus himself did this from the Cross. Learn from him for he is meek and humble of heart.

Moreover, remember the constant faith of the fathers as it was written eloquently by St Irenaeus in the 2nd century AD:

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).

[Cam42]

[quote]In that entire post all you did was attack one young man's ignorance....[/quote]

Excuse me? Who was ingnorant?

[Myles Domini]

me

As I said I know nothing about the Talmud