jefferson

[dairygirl4u2c]

whoever wants to learn about the foundation of our country need nothing more than to study thomas jefferson. the man cut and pasted his own bible out of the real one..


The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast‐like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: geniuses and hypocrites.

― Thomas Jefferson

Edited January 17, 2005 by dairygirl4u2c

[Pennypacker11]

I think that your quote there points out a very important fact that many people forget: Most of our founding fathers were not Christians, at least not in the traditional sense (perhaps nominally). Many were deists/agnostics.

However, I think that John Courtney Murray (in [i]We Hold These Truths[/i] argues fairly pursuasively that our country was founded upon the Natural Law tradition; thus, while perhaps many of the founders were not explicitly Christians and certiainly not Catholic, many of the principles that the country is based upon are Christian.

[dairygirl4u2c]

smart comment, thanx

[jrndveritatis]

I think we need to be wary of saying that "most" of the Founding Fathers were Deists and non-Christians. In his book "Original Intent", Barton makes a solid case that this is an interpretation put forward by historical revisionists and secularists. Of course, Jefferson and Franklin certainly were not Christians, and Adams seems to have become one before his death. However many of the Founding Fathers were devout Christians and even (Protestant) clergy. In fact, Charles Carroll, a signer of the Declaration, was a Catholic.

The foundational documents of our country are undeniably based on the natural law tradition, and sometimes parallel the political thought of St. Robert Bellarmine.

Too bad about Jefferson though. Prayerfully he repented before his death.

[cathqat]

[quote name='Pennypacker11' date='Jan 16 2005, 09:13 PM'] I think that your quote there points out a very important fact that many people forget: Most of our founding fathers were not Christians, at least not in the traditional sense (perhaps nominally). Many were deists/agnostics.

However, I think that John Courtney Murray (in [i]We Hold These Truths[/i]) argues fairly pursuasively that our country was founded upon the Natural Law tradition; thus, while perhaps many of the founders were not explicitly Christians and certiainly not Catholic, many of the principles that the country is based upon are Christian. [/quote]
I disagree very strongly with John Courtney Murray (and Fr. Isaac Thomas Hecker, and others) on the "compatibility" of American government and culture with Christianity. I think Murray himself often taught a false understanding of freedom.

All our social structures, economics, laws & policies, and culture are undergirded by unitarian, nominalistic, and liberal (in the classical, not the partisan, sense) principles which are fundamentally at odds with Christianity. Those principles make our society rabidly individualistic with virtually no sense of mutual responsibility. Americans usually have good, kind intentions, and are capable of (and often do) great things, but the premises of our social, political, and economic structures are seriously messed up, and this has dire consequences both here and internationally.

From these nominalistic, unitarian, liberal principles grow massive, seemingly impenetrable "structures of sin" which have created a veritable "culture of death."

Were the "Founding Fathers" of the United States Christians? Many claimed to be, and perhaps some were, but more than a few were nominal Christians at best.

Patrick Henry wrote "this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians," and John Locke wrote, "a Christian I am sure I am." But when the roots of our government and society are [i]examined[/i], they show more evidence of unitarianism, deism, individualism, and liberalism than anything approaching Christianity. Even if the men were "Christians," their principles were incompatible with Christianity.

John Locke, for example, in his treatise on toleration, contrasts man in "a state of nature" with man living in a governed society. This document was a huge influence on the framers of the U.S. Constitution. The problem? Locke sees the man in "a state of nature" as a completely autonomous individual with no responsibilities to other people. Only when a man enters a "social contract" does he receive such responsibilities as a kind of "trade off." Those responsibilities conflict with his own natural rights, some of which he must "give up" to live with other people. One of the greatest virtues, in this view, is toleration and leaving other people alone, so long as your own interests don't come into conflict. "Freedom" is, in this worldview, being without responsibilities to others and being left alone by others. Etc. etc. [If this sounds in any way appealing to you, it is chiefly because we Americans have been fed such doctrines since birth.]

Locke's scenario is not a Christian vision at all. For Christians, the God in whose image we humans are created is already a community or "society" of three divine Persons, the holy Trinity. As beings created in the image of the Trinitarian God, we originate in community and it is our nature to live in community or society with and for each other. Where Locke's "social contract" was an alien and extrinsic concept to natural man, Christianity must say society is intrinsic to humans being who we are. Our rights and responsibilities do not conflict; they are mutually supporting. (E.g. You have a right not to be murdered and I have a responsibility never to murder you.) The greatest virtue, from a Christian perspective, is LOVE (which is very nearly the opposite of Locke's idea). In a Christian vision, true "freedom" is the ability to love others perfectly and serve their good (again, nearly the opposite of Locke's view).

Someone once tried to convince me that Thomas Jefferson was a Christian because he had written "in the front of his well-worn Bible," these words: "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator." Jefferson was also the chairman of the American Bible Society, I was told, which he considered his "highest and most important role."

What was said may be true, I suppose, but Jefferson was no Christian. Believing that "whole history of [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it," Jefferson wrote his own "Bible," [i]The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth[/i], from which Jefferson removed all the miracles, and especially the annunciation, virgin birth, and resurrection of Jesus from death. Jefferson did not believe Jesus is God, nor did he believe in the holy Trinity. He considered Paul the "great corruptor of the teachings of Jesus," and often said "I am of a sect by myself." That is Jefferson's so-called "real Christianity." He was a unitarian, and eagerly hoped "that the present generation will see Unitarianism become the general religion of the United States."

Jefferson had no particular love for Christianity: "I have examined all the known superstitions of the world and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology." The same Jefferson also wrote "Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law," and "I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke." Is it any wonder the man's principles are incompatible with Christianity?

From the bad roots of unitarianism, individualism, and liberalism grew the social structures, economics, laws & policies, and culture of the United States. And now, even the average Christian citizens of this country are so infected with the dominant invividualism, liberal principles, and unitarian concept of God that they can hadly tell the difference between "the American way of life" and Christianity. They actually seem to think that the Constitution represents Christian values rather than the values of John Locke & Adam Smith, or that the selfish values of Locke & Smith are somehow compatible with Christianity! Ugh.

For further reading...
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/MURRAY.HTM"][b]Religious Freedom, Truth, and American Liberalism: Another Look at John Courtney Murray[/b] by David L. Schindler[/url]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='cathqat' date='Jan 16 2005, 09:02 PM'] I think Murray himself often taught a false understanding of freedom.
[/quote]
I agree.

[Pennypacker11]

[quote name='cathqat' date='Jan 16 2005, 11:02 PM'] I disagree very strongly with John Courtney Murray (and Fr. Isaac Thomas Hecker, and others) on the "compatibility" of American government and culture with Christianity. I think Murray himself often taught a false understanding of freedom.

[/quote]
Can you explain a little about why you think his understanding of freedom is false?

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='cathqat' date='Jan 17 2005, 12:02 AM'] I disagree very strongly with John Courtney Murray (and Fr. Isaac Thomas Hecker, and others) on the "compatibility" of American government and culture with Christianity. I think Murray himself often taught a false understanding of freedom. . . .

[/quote]
By the Mass, We agree on something!

[popestpiusx]

By the way, Jefferson was a scumbag. This is not some new revelation. He even supported the French Revolution. It doesn't get much worse than that.

[Socrates]

I wouldn't go so far as to call Jefferson a scumbag (Though he was a complete idiot as regards religion and his praise for the Frendh Revolution!)

Jefferson was also for the limitation of federal government and agrarian ideals. In this respect, I think he is a positive influence on the founding of the Republic.
He would have been absolutely horrified at the monstrous beauracracy the Fed gov't has grown into.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jan 17 2005, 02:10 PM'] I wouldn't go so far as to call Jefferson a scumbag (Though he was a complete idiot as regards religion and his praise for the Frendh Revolution!)

[/quote]
I think he was too smart to be an idiot.

[quote]Jefferson was also for the limitation of federal government and agrarian ideals.  In this respect, I think he is a positive influence on the founding of the Republic.
He would have been absolutely horrified at the monstrous beauracracy the Fed gov't has grown into.[/quote]

On this we agree.

[Socrates]

Anyone interested in a serious look at true American conservatism and political philosophy (and who wants to avoid the shallowness so prevalent in much contemporary political scribbling of both Left and Right) should read the works of the late great Russell Kirk, conservative political philosopher (and my godfather!).

Kirk reveals how much of the constitution is actually rooted in English conservative thought, and was not entirely something radical or revolutionary.

Kirk's books include The Roots of American Order, The Conservative Mind: From Burke to Eliot, America's British Culture, and Rights and Duties: Reflections on Our Conservative Constitution.

I would recomend his works to serious conservatives, liberals, and "right-wing" anti-Americans alike.

[popestpiusx]

Kirk is good stuff. He's your Godfather?

[Socrates]

Yes. We lived in Michigan when I was a little kid.
I still have memories of visiting his big creepy mansion in Mecosta. (It used to be haunted, but the haunted part burnt down.)

By total coincidence, I met his youngest daughter, Andrea, 5 years ago when we were both interning in D.C. We'd never seen each other since we were both six!

[cathqat]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Jan 17 2005, 10:48 AM'] By the Mass, We agree on something! [/quote]
We couldn't possibly disagree about everything