spathariossa Posted January 19, 2005 Author Share Posted January 19, 2005 [quote name='Luthien' date='Jan 18 2005, 11:11 PM'] Hey I just felt the need to say it 'cause Im truthful [/quote] It's okay. I felt the same way as you. And I was like "Oh my God what have you done to me?! I'm going to be a freak! Omg! This is terrible! People are all going to stare. I should kill myself. I can't live like that. Why God why? I'm going to look like a man in a dress." Of course none of that is true but I've seen alot of the creepy old people who claim to be just like me and they DO look like men in dresses. They scare the hell out of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathurian Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 Pray for them -- they had to deal with this before things were quite so advanced as they are now, and ended up shunned from most of society. I mean, if we don't choose to be how we are, can you imagine THEM choosing to be how they are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 Nobody choose how they start out in life, everybody chooses how they react to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted January 19, 2005 Author Share Posted January 19, 2005 [quote name='Cathurian' date='Jan 19 2005, 11:56 AM'] Pray for them -- they had to deal with this before things were quite so advanced as they are now, and ended up shunned from most of society. I mean, if we don't choose to be how we are, can you imagine THEM choosing to be how they are? [/quote] Sorry Dante, but these people got married and had kids before transitioning. That's wrong. Not only is it wrong, it is unfathomable. How could you have sex and then claim that you have a mismatched body? Wouldn't that have disturbed you just a bit with the whole sex thing? Just thinking about it makes my skin crawl. Blech... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 Why is it unfathomable? Human beings and sex are far more complex than you imagine. The brain is the center of our sex drive , not our external organs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathurian Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 (edited) [quote]Sorry Dante, but these people got married and had kids before transitioning. That's wrong. Not only is it wrong, it is unfathomable. How could you have sex and then claim that you have a mismatched body? Wouldn't that have disturbed you just a bit with the whole sex thing? Just thinking about it makes my skin crawl. Blech...[/quote] I know, Alina, but a lot of people do that because they think it will "cure" them. I'm sure you've heard the stories. There are even a few people like that on Jennifer's site if I remember right. My friend Larry knows someone like that. And SURE it disturbed them -- but the logic is that they are horrifically disordered, and if they continue to even have such urges they are going to hell, so they will do WHATEVER IT TAKES to make it stop. With peer pressure from friends and family to get married and have children, and "encouragement" that they can and will succeed in marriage, what do you think they'd do, Alina? Would you rather have gay sex, or go to hell? Which is more disturbing? People who grew up in extremely conservative Protestant areas buy into that just because THEY DON'T KNOW ANY BETTER. If they have the same concept of God that their family does, they think that either one: they must be "cured" by any means possible, or two: they are going to hell. GOING TO HELL. If you honestly and sincerely thought that, you might decide that getting married and having children was worth a shot too. Anything that might possibly work to save yourself from eternal fire. Would you hate me if I said I considered doing it too, but was too scared to make it into a resolve? It's like how you tell me about the "scary old MTFs". I've never seen one of them in my entire life, because I live in Nowhere, Georgia. In California, I would not expect you to know what it's like for your entire family to systematically disown you, tell you that you are a sick freak and going to hell, while you still subscribe to the same theology that they do. It's scary, and if I weren't Catholic, I don't know what I'd be doing right now to be honest with you. I'd probably still be trying to be a girl. I might be married a couple years from now. Because I thought I'd go to hell if I didn't. Edited January 19, 2005 by Cathurian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 [quote name='Cathurian' date='Jan 19 2005, 12:30 PM'] Would you rather have gay sex, or go to hell? Which is more disturbing? People who grew up in extremely conservative Protestant areas buy into that just because THEY DON'T KNOW ANY BETTER, and they will do anything, even have sex, to "cure" themselves and not go to hell. [/quote] THis makes no sense. How would having "gay sex" prevent one from going to hell? I thought this was discussing conservative protestants who are against homosexualtiy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathurian Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 I just said "gay sex" to show what it feels like. Two people in oppositely-sexed bodies are not having gay sex, but to the transsexual, it would feel like that, because they identify with the other gender. So it's like having sex with someone of the same gender to them. Spathariossa cannot even fathom doing this, so she cannot understand why some transsexuals would endure it and marry and have children. The answer is because they thought they would go to hell if they could not get rid of their transsexual urges in some way, and their families encouraged them to marry and have children. If someone honestly thought they were going to hell, they'd make themselves do just about anything to prevent that. Even go through an experience equivalent in their minds to having gay sex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 A man and a woman having children is not "gay sex." It is objectively the conjugal union if a man and a woman, regardless how they "feel" about it. (not to say that everyone should get married, or anything) If a man or woman has a fully-formed reproductive system that is capable of having children, he (or she) is objectively of a certain gender. People need to start looking at things objectively, and stop being so pre-occupied with subjective emotions and feelings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 Unless you have talked to each individual person, you have no clue as to why they married and had children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 The desire for children could be enough reason too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathurian Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 (edited) I agree with both of you. But that's a reason I've heard from quite a few stories I've googled up online, one from a friend I know offline, and personal experience, so it's not unreasonable to assume that a notable portion of transsexuals who got married and had children did so out of fear of hellfire. Edit: I don't mean to sound preachy, or like I know everything there is to know about the subject, but I've had this conversation before and the claim that getting married/having kids invalidates someone's transsexual feelings really unnerves me. I was just throwing out one common motivation for these actions that I know a bit about, in order to combat the idea that it's simply unfathomable to have sex if you're a real transsexual. In no way did I mean that this was the ONLY reason. Just a strong one. Edited January 19, 2005 by Cathurian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathurian Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Socrates' date='Jan 19 2005, 01:50 PM'] A man and a woman having children is not "gay sex." It is objectively the conjugal union if a man and a woman, regardless how they "feel" about it. (not to say that everyone should get married, or anything) If a man or woman has a fully-formed reproductive system that is capable of having children, he (or she) is objectively of a certain gender. People need to start looking at things objectively, and stop being so pre-occupied with subjective emotions and feelings. [/quote] You're right. All I said was that despite this, to the transsexual (or at every single one I've ever asked about sex, ever) the union is not perceived in that way at all. It seems (subjectively) like having sex with someone of one's own gender. [i]Not that it objectively is.[/i] This feeling would have to be overcome by another strong feeling or conviction (fear of hellfire, desire for children) for a transsexual to bring themselves to have sex. Spathariossa said she could not fathom how anyone could overcome it. I really aimed that at Spathariossa in the first place, so if you don't get it, just drop it. And know what, I'm just going to shut up now, because I'm terrible at explaining this anyway, and everyone's probably confused and/or mad at me by now. Sorry. Edit: Gah, re-reading this stuff I'm almost certain I look completely moronic to half the board now. I hope not. Edited January 19, 2005 by Cathurian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rachael Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 (edited) ok. im getting confused. Edited January 19, 2005 by rachael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 I'm so confused... sorry... I'm only working on half wattage today... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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