Tink Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 I completely understand your mentality on this one, though I don't exactly agree with it. Know that my prayers are with you, Hyper and Spathariossa and whomever else is in this position. Transsexuality, gender confusion, whatever you may call it, is a difficult cross to bear. But it is a burden and an urge that doesn't need to be acted upon. I mean no offense to either of you, as I'm sure it's much more difficult than people make it sound, but I must agree with the majority of Socrates' post in saying that if you are created to be a certain gender, any inclinations to be otherwise need not be acted upon. You can act like a female and be as feminine as you like, but to be compelled to deny the God-given gift of sexuality through the act of sex-reassignment surgery is devaluing your individuality and God's wisdom. For example, I don't always feel comfortable or at ease being a Catholic, and sometimes I honestly believe that I would make a far better Protestant or Wiccan, but for goodness sake, that doesn't make me change my religion- I know God created me to be one of His children, and no matter how uncomfortable, irritating, or unnatural it may feel, that is how I will proceed to live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Tink, I don't have any plans to leave the Church--EVER. And I'd make a lousy Wiccan, 'cause I'm Catholic. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted January 18, 2005 Author Share Posted January 18, 2005 [quote name='Tink' date='Jan 17 2005, 11:49 PM'] I completely understand your mentality on this one, though I don't exactly agree with it. Know that my prayers are with you, Hyper and Spathariossa and whomever else is in this position. Transsexuality, gender confusion, whatever you may call it, is a difficult cross to bear. But it is a burden and an urge that doesn't need to be acted upon. I mean no offense to either of you, as I'm sure it's much more difficult than people make it sound, but I must agree with the majority of Socrates' post in saying that if you are created to be a certain gender, any inclinations to be otherwise need not be acted upon. You can act like a female and be as feminine as you like, but to be compelled to deny the God-given gift of sexuality through the act of sex-reassignment surgery is devaluing your individuality and God's wisdom. For example, I don't always feel comfortable or at ease being a Catholic, and sometimes I honestly believe that I would make a far better Protestant or Wiccan, but for goodness sake, that doesn't make me change my religion- I know God created me to be one of His children, and no matter how uncomfortable, irritating, or unnatural it may feel, that is how I will proceed to live. [/quote] You're very presumptuous. You aren't presumptuous for disagreeing with me, although I could make that case; but rather, you presume to know God's intent. How do you know God didn't give me a girl brain and a guy body intentionally to bring me closer to the Church than I might otherwise have been, or to give me compassion, or to teach me some lesson? How do you know he didn't intend all along for me to transition? How do you know he didn't put me in this time and this place and this situation so that I would do exactly what I'm doing? You can't know that. This God made you a boy nonsense is exactly that - nonsense. How do you define male and female? There are women who are XY, men who are XXY, people born with ambiguous genitals. Why not ambiguous brains? Why not differently gendered brains? Do you have any clue how many possible disorders there are for a child that are determined pre-natally? You can't know that I was made male by God anymore than you could know what God thinks of my life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tink Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Well, then it is the same to say that homosexuals may act upon their desires because it could have been God's intent. God could have planned for them to suffer for their sexual preference, and be brought closer to Him through it. How are we to say that they don't have ambiguous brains as well? Errrm, I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 It is certainly not Church teaching that peopl born wit the genitals of both sexes should not "act on their intent" whatever that means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 "You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 we are discussing the correction of a genital deformity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tink Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 exactly, so what would be the purpose of having surgically altered genitalia with no reproductive use or significance? If you are a male with female inclinations, you can certainly act feminine without a physical change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted January 18, 2005 Author Share Posted January 18, 2005 [quote name='Tink' date='Jan 18 2005, 12:01 AM'] Well, then it is the same to say that homosexuals may act upon their desires because it could have been God's intent. God could have planned for them to suffer for their sexual preference, and be brought closer to Him through it. How are we to say that they don't have ambiguous brains as well? Errrm, I don't think so. [/quote] Well there's a huge difference. First of all, this isn't about sexuality, it is about gender. This isn't about who I want to have carnal relations with, it is about who I am as a person. This alone separates it from homosexuality. Of course, we can go further and look at the Church teaching. The Church says that it is wrong to engage in homosexual relations. The Church does NOT say what I'm doing is wrong. In fact, the only document we have says otherwise. I follow the restrictions it places upon me but I don't invent new ways to torture myself. Finally, men and women can achieve celibacy - it happens. What doesn't happen is people living the wrong gender their whole lives and not screwing themselves up. The youth trans suicide rate is over 50%. I am more likely than not to kill myself. To put this in perspective, the US teen suicide rate is 1%. The Gay or Bisexual suicide rate is 2%. You really need to think before you ask people to do ridiculous things. But then again, I'm sure you'd be fine with a penis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tink Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 and I was simply making a comparison in logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 tink i don't think you get it. that's ok though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Okay, I think I've found the section under question. It says the procedure is allowable only under certain "extreme" conditions, an only when it is clearly necessary to cure the mental distress (probably to avoid greater evil such as danger of suicide.) It then warns that surgery usually makes the mental condtion worse. The article also says: "The key point is that the (transsexual) surgical operation is so superficial and external that it does not change the personality. If the person was male, he remains male. If she was female, she remains female," said the source. See, here is the problem. The surgery does not give one actual new genitals with reproductive function, but an artificial mutilation of flesh. Hyper, the difference is a man's penis (or a woman's vagina) is a gift from God. The surgery is an unnatural destruction of what God gave you. Spar., it seems you have a genuine physical condition, and I'm honestly not an expert on such things. Since you've said you have no sex drive, issues of chastity should not be a problem. Just serve the Lord the best you can and do not feel bad about being single or not being a religious. I am single, and am not a priest or religious. Worrying about such things will only create unnecesarry trouble for you. I'm sorry you have to deal with condition, and i wish you the best. I can probably seem like a mean old SOB at times, but I really want the best for you. I think you are a good-hearted person. God bless, Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tink Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 [quote name='spathariossa' date='Jan 18 2005, 12:08 AM'] Well there's a huge difference. First of all, this isn't about sexuality, it is about gender. This isn't about who I want to have carnal relations with, it is about who I am as a person. This alone separates it from homosexuality. Of course, we can go further and look at the Church teaching. The Church says that it is wrong to engage in homosexual relations. The Church does NOT say what I'm doing is wrong. In fact, the only document we have says otherwise. I follow the restrictions it places upon me but I don't invent new ways to torture myself. Finally, men and women can achieve celibacy - it happens. What doesn't happen is people living the wrong gender their whole lives and not screwing themselves up. The youth trans suicide rate is over 50%. I am more likely than not to kill myself. To put this in perspective, the US teen suicide rate is 1%. The Gay or Bisexual suicide rate is 2%. You really need to think before you ask people to do ridiculous things. But then again, I'm sure you'd be fine with a penis. [/quote] wow, you've totally lost me. Perhaps you misunderstood, I'm saying that in your position the wisest thing I would do would be to take a vow of celibacy, and, if that is altogether too painful, offer it up and unite it with Christ's suffering on the cross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted January 18, 2005 Author Share Posted January 18, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Jan 18 2005, 12:08 AM'] Okay, I think I've found the section under question. It says the procedure is allowable only under certain "extreme" conditions, an only when it is clearly necessary to cure the mental distress (probably to avoid greater evil such as danger of suicide.) It then warns that surgery usually makes the mental condtion worse. The article also says: "The key point is that the (transsexual) surgical operation is so superficial and external that it does not change the personality. If the person was male, he remains male. If she was female, she remains female," said the source. See, here is the problem. The surgery does not give one actual new genitals with reproductive function, but an artificial mutilation of flesh. Hyper, the difference is a man's penis (or a woman's vagina) is a gift from God. The surgery is an unnatural destruction of what God gave you. Spar., it seems you have a genuine physical condition, and I'm honestly not an expert on such things. Since you've said you have no sex drive, issues of chastity should not be a problem. Just serve the Lord the best you can and do not feel bad about being single or not being a religious. I am single, and am not a priest or religious. Worrying about such things will only create unnecesarry trouble for you. I'm sorry you have to deal with condition, and i wish you the best. I can probably seem like a mean old SOB at times, but I really want the best for you. I think you are a good-hearted person. God bless, Greg [/quote] Thanks Socrates. I'm not asking people to like it - I don't like it that's for sure. But I'm asking people to accept the fact that I don't have a choice in the matter either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tink Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 [quote name='hyperdulia again' date='Jan 18 2005, 12:08 AM'] tink i don't think you get it. that's ok though. [/quote] Well, originally I did, but now I'm completely lost. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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