spathariossa Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 VATICAN-TRANSSEXUALS Jan-14-2003 (710 words) xxxi Vatican says 'sex-change' operation does not change person's gender By John Norton Catholic News Service VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- After years of study, the Vatican's doctrinal congregation has sent church leaders a confidential document concluding that "sex-change" procedures do not change a person's gender in the eyes of the church. Consequently, the document instructs bishops never to alter the sex listed in parish baptismal records and says Catholics who have undergone "sex-change" procedures are not eligible to marry, be ordained to the priesthood or enter religious life, according to a source familiar with the text. The document was completed in 2000 and sent "sub secretum" (under secrecy) to the papal representatives in each country to provide guidance on a case-by-case basis to bishops. But when it became clear that many bishops were still unaware of its existence, in 2002 the congregation sent it to the presidents of bishops' conferences as well. "The key point is that the (transsexual) surgical operation is so superficial and external that it does not change the personality. If the person was male, he remains male. If she was female, she remains female," said the source. Bishop Wilton D. Gregory of Belleville, Ill., president of the U.S. bishops' conference, sent a brief letter to U.S. bishops in October informing them of the Vatican document and highlighting its instruction not to alter parish baptismal records, except to make a notation in the margin when deemed necessary. "The altered condition of a member of the faithful under civil law does not change one's canonical condition, which is male or female as determined at the moment of birth," Bishop Gregory wrote. of those whose genetic makeup and physical characteristics are unambiguously of one sex but who feel that they belong to the opposite sex. In some cases, the urge is so strong that the person undergoes a "sex-change" operation to acquire the opposite sex's external sexual organs. The new organs have no reproductive function. The document's conclusions close one area of controversial speculation that arose in Italy in the late 1980s when a priest publicly announced he had undergone a "sex-change" operation. Given church teaching that only males can be validly ordained priests, the question posed in newspapers at the time was whether a priest who undergoes a "sex-change" operation remains a priest -- the answer is "yes" -- and whether a woman who undergoes the procedure can be ordained -- "no." A Vatican source said the text was prepared largely by Jesuit Father Urbano Navarrete, now a retired canon law professor at Rome's Gregorian University. In 1997, Father Navarrete wrote an article on transsexualism in an authoritative canon law journal and has been consulted by the doctrinal congregation on specific cases involving transsexualism and hermaphroditism. The priest, citing confidentiality rules, declined to speak on the record to Catholic News Service for this story. The Vatican document's specific points include: -- An analysis of the moral licitness of "sex-change" operations. It concludes that the procedure could be morally acceptable in certain extreme cases if a medical probability exists that it will "cure" the patient's internal turmoil. But a source familiar with the document said recent medical evidence suggested that in a majority of cases the procedure increases the likelihood of depression and psychic disturbance. -- A provision giving religious superiors administrative authority to expel a member of the community who has undergone the procedure. In most cases of expulsion from religious life, the superior must conduct a trial. -- A recommendation of psychiatric treatment and spiritual counseling for transsexual priests. It suggests they can continue to exercise their ministry privately if it does not cause scandal. -- A conclusion that those who undergo sex-change operations are unsuitable candidates for priesthood and religious life because of mental instability. -- A conclusion that people who have undergone a sex-change operation cannot enter into a valid marriage, either because they would be marrying someone of the same sex in the eyes of the church or because their mental state casts doubt on their ability to make and uphold their marriage vows. -- An affirmation of the validity of marriages in which one partner later undergoes the procedure, unless a church tribunal determines that a transsexual disposition predated the wedding ceremony. END 01/14/2003 2:33 PM ET Copyright © 2003 --------------------------------- I thought I felt a calling to a religious order, but I'm not mentally stable enough. I thought I wanted kids, but I'm not physically capable. Marriage was a happy dream of childhood, but I'm not mentally stable enough. I thought I could leave the past behind me, but my baptismal records are set in stone. For some reason I perservere and stay with the Church but I'm not sure why I do. I help the poor, I give alms, I take communion, I go to confession, I obey all the rules - even the ones enumerated here. And yet nonetheless I remain afflicted for all time. No wonder I'm on so many different anti-depressants. I wish I'd never found this document - but I suppose knowing what the Church thinks of me is better than not knowing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 " I thought I could leave the past behind me, but my baptismal records are set in stone. For some reason I perservere and stay with the Church but I'm not sure why I do." Flannery O'connor said it and I don't care who finds it offensive: Sometimes Catholics suffer more from the Church than for the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted January 14, 2005 Author Share Posted January 14, 2005 [quote name='hyperdulia again' date='Jan 14 2005, 01:56 AM'] " I thought I could leave the past behind me, but my baptismal records are set in stone. For some reason I perservere and stay with the Church but I'm not sure why I do." Flannery O'connor said it and I don't care who finds it offensive: Sometimes Catholics suffer more from the Church than for the Church. [/quote] It isn't offensive, it's true. You and I are both faithful Catholics, who have done nothing to merit the disorders we have, and are nonetheless excluded from everything in life because of it. Oh, and please nobody give me that called to being single and celibate with no kids and no family stuff. I don't even think I can legally join a third order according to this document. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 What did you expect? What is it that you expect from the Church? Why, may I ask, do you think that the Church hates you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
track2004 Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 Just from reading some of some of your recent posts I'd like to say to Spath and Hyper: You both rock . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted January 14, 2005 Author Share Posted January 14, 2005 [quote name='popestpiusx' date='Jan 14 2005, 02:07 AM'] What did you expect? What is it that you expect from the Church? Why, may I ask, do you think that the Church hates you? [/quote] Love? And ummm...the Church hates me because it expects me to do nothing meaningful with my life other than to be a secular human being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JazzforJesus Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 [quote name='popestpiusx' date='Jan 14 2005, 02:07 AM'] What did you expect? What is it that you expect from the Church? Why, may I ask, do you think that the Church hates you? [/quote] look she is having enough troubles in her life, how about respect, listen, and pray for her. Im Praying for her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted January 14, 2005 Author Share Posted January 14, 2005 [quote name='track2004' date='Jan 14 2005, 02:09 AM'] Just from reading some of some of your recent posts I'd like to say to Spath and Hyper: You both rock . [/quote] Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 (edited) [quote name='track2004' date='Jan 14 2005, 02:09 AM'] Just from reading some of some of your recent posts I'd like to say to Spath and Hyper: You both rock . [/quote] aww shucks. You don't want to play with me. I'll teach ya bad habits--like loving the Church while still thinking something has gone terribly wrong in the way Her leaders relate to Catholics. Edited January 14, 2005 by hyperdulia again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted January 14, 2005 Author Share Posted January 14, 2005 [quote name='JazzforJesus' date='Jan 14 2005, 02:10 AM'] look she is having enough troubles in her life, how about respect, listen, and pray for her. Im Praying for her [/quote] Thank you for your prayers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JazzforJesus Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 I agree with track, yall are very awesome. God asks us to love everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
track2004 Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 I tend to hang out with the "Scandelous" Catholics and I love it. Sometime, maybe out side the phorum, ask me about my RCIA canidate, I'm sure you two would appericiate the story. Perfect people aren't fun because it is the brutally honest humanity that is attractive because in it's brokenness we find a communion with another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted January 14, 2005 Author Share Posted January 14, 2005 [quote name='track2004' date='Jan 14 2005, 02:19 AM'] I tend to hang out with the "Scandelous" Catholics and I love it. Sometime, maybe out side the phorum, ask me about my RCIA canidate, I'm sure you two would appericiate the story. Perfect people aren't fun because it is the brutally honest humanity that is attractive because in it's brokenness we find a communion with another. [/quote] This issue robbed me of my faith in God by the age of 13. But it never completely left. Those who haven't suffered greatly and had their faith tested have no real faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 [quote name='track2004' date='Jan 14 2005, 02:19 AM'] I tend to hang out with the "Scandelous" Catholics and I love it. Sometime, maybe out side the phorum, ask me about my RCIA canidate, I'm sure you two would appericiate the story. Perfect people aren't fun because it is the brutally honest humanity that is attractive because in it's brokenness we find a communion with another. [/quote] That is a beautiful statement. In C&L talk, you just exalted my "I." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted January 14, 2005 Author Share Posted January 14, 2005 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from the words of my groaning? O my God I cry out by day, but you do not answer, by night, and am not silent. You are enthroned as the Holy One; you are the praise of Israel. In you our fathers put their trust; they trusted and you delivered them. They cried to you and were saved; in you they trusted and were not disappointed. But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by men and despised by the people. All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads: He trusts in the Lord; let the Lord rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him. You brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you even at my mother's breast. From birth I was cast upon you; from my mother's womb you have been my God. Do not be far from me, for trouble is near and there is no one to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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