1 Timothy 2:5-6

[musturde]

I cant seem to find a contradiction their reasoning on this verse.
5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men–the testimony given in its proper time.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='musturde' date='Jan 13 2005, 08:27 PM'] I cant seem to find a contradiction their reasoning on this verse.
5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men–the testimony given in its proper time. [/quote]
protestants often use this verse against the role of priests in confession and the role saints, who hear our prayers and pray for us to God. but, when Jesus is described here as the "one mediator" this is a "one" not of number but of primacy. he is THE ONE, but we all do the work of Jesus and God in many ways. John 14:12 says "Anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father." thus, Jesus the one teacher commands [i]us [/i]to teach (Mat. 28:20) and Jesus, the one Son of the Father commands [i]us [/i]to pray "[i]our [/i]father" (Mat 6:9), Jesus the one mediator makes us a holy priesthood (priests mediate between God and man), in 1 Pet 2:5 and commands us to intercede for one another and to give our lives for one another in his Spirit (1 Tim 2:1; Jn 15:12-13).

so, there is nothing anti-biblical about co-mediation.

[thessalonian]

Answer what in particular. If the arguement is with regard to praying to Mary and the saints then, you answer it by showing the protestant that v. 1-4 of that chapter encourage intercessory prayer. That those prayers are efficatious precisely because of his mediatoin. Certainly he does not think it is wrong to ask others to pray for us. Explain that those in heaven are still joined to Christ (romans 8:38, nothing can separate us from the love of God, neither life nor death.......). That we are members of the body of Christ (rom 12, 1 cor 12) and therefore we are joined to them. Therefore they can interceed for us. But it is not as mediators but co-mediators. That is we cooperate in his mediation. That he is the one mediator does not mean we can not share in that mediation. 1 Cor 3:11 says there is one foundatoin which is Christ. Yet Eph 2:20 says that Apostles and prophets are the foundatoin. In John it says Christ is the light of the world. But it also says we are the light of the world. He works through us. Hope that helps.

Essentially I would say there is not a contradiction. They are just not seeing the full implications of the scriptures and what they mean by their either or theology.

Edited January 14, 2005 by thessalonian

[cathqat]

Also worthy of note:

The [b]sigular, unique mediation[/b] of Jesus Christ is based on the fact that he, and he [b]alone of all persons[/b] either divine or human, is both fully divine and fully human, 100% God and 100% Man. [b]Among all persons, only Jesus[/b] "stands on the side of both God and humanity simultaneously," so to speak. [b]No one else could[/b] mediate between God and humanity in this way, neither a mere human like Mary (as we Catholics are sometimes falsely accused of believing) nor a great and powerful angel like Michael (as Jehovah's Witnesses believe).

Because Jesus the God-man acts in this way as our unique Mediator, our intercessory prayers for each other (encouraged in the immediate context of these verses, as thessalonian pointed out) are effective.

And because, through his incarnation, Jesus has united himself to each and every human being, we humans are all called to participate (in a completely subordinate and dependent way) in his life and work. This participation is enabled by the power of the Holy Spirit, who imparts the life of Christ to us through the sacraments Jesus established. Thus we become "God's coworkers" ([i]synergoi[/i]), to use Paul's terminology.

This is why each of us can be called members of a "royal priesthood": because we live in Christ, the supreme and unique Priest and King. Etc.

[jezic]

Confession doesn't disagree with that. It says there is one Jesus who is the one mediator.

That doesn't change. Confession is like talking to Jesus. One mediator.

Why do that ask that when they have prayer leaders or churches at all? Their interpretation of the verse i find selective and they apply it only to certain things.

NOthing in the Catholic church contradics it. Sometimes the priest stands in for Jesus but other than that, i don't see anything wrong with it.

[jezic]

I also forgot, when has asking people to pray for you hurt anything??

You do not ask the saints because you cannot ask God yourself. They just help you.

[Archangel Raphael]

Besides, I think the proper term is "intercession." Even in the Bible (not sure where though) it says there are many intercessors, but only one mediator between God and man. The Saints interceed on your behalf when you ask them too, and so do your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ here one earth. So there's a difference between the two.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Archangel Raphael' date='Jan 17 2005, 01:19 AM'] Besides, I think the proper term is "intercession."  Even in the Bible (not sure where though) it says there are many intercessors, but only one mediator between God and man.  The Saints interceed on your behalf when you ask them too, and so do your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ here one earth.  So there's a difference between the two. [/quote]
That's the verse in the topic of this thread.

1 Tim 2:
[1]
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men,
[2] for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.
[3] This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
[4] who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
[5] For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,


That's why I said to start from v 1-4. It is because of Christ's meditorship that are intercession and that of the saints in heaven is effective. One can also go to Rev. 5 and 8 where it is apparent that the prayers on earth are being presented to God, as represented by the bowls of incencese. Note that the angels mingle their prayers with those of the saints.

Rev.
5:[8] And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;


8:3] And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne;

Edited January 17, 2005 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

It is also important to realize what the mediation of Christ means. It does not mean that he is the only one who assists in our salvation. Most certaintly the angels who look upon the father in heaven have a role. Most certainly angels have a part in the Battle. Christ's mediation is with regard to the new covenant.

Heb.9
[15] Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant.
Heb.12
[24] and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.


This does not mean we do not today and in the life after have a role to play in other men's salvation and cannot cooperate with this mediation that Christ accomplishes. This is the context of the term co-mediatrix with regard to Mary. The latin for co- (latin cum) is with, not an equal or another mediator as Protestants like to claim.

Blessings

[HomeTeamFamily]

the way ive thought about this is that yes Jesus is the ONLY mediator between God and man, but he can and does choose to mediate through priests, through saints, through mary, etc etc.....so it is by the power of Jesus' role as mediator that we get the ability to use mary, saints, and priests

is that sound?

[cathqat]

[quote name='VoloHumilisEsse' date='Jan 17 2005, 11:28 AM'] the way ive thought about this is that yes Jesus is the ONLY mediator between God and man, but he can and does choose to mediate through priests, through saints, through mary, etc etc.....so it is by the power of Jesus' role as mediator that we get the ability to use mary, saints, and priests

is that sound? [/quote]
Yes, that is sound.

[jezic]

i like that idea. I wish i would have known that for today. I was asked by a Protestant about it. I simply said that many times the priest stands in as a physical presence for the spiritually present Christ.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='jezic' date='Jan 17 2005, 03:47 PM'] i like that idea. I wish i would have known that for today. I was asked by a Protestant about it. I simply said that many times the priest stands in as a physical presence for the spiritually present Christ. [/quote]
in persona Christi, nothing wrong with that answer.

[jezic]

to some protestants it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I am not an experienced apologist. I must work on that.

[Archangel Raphael]

I don't waste my time personally on people asking questions just to start a fight. I may answer them to a degree depending on what the Spirit leads, but alot of the time they just want to get you answering and on the defensive. Many of them don't do it too much for just real answer, yet some do.

Your answer was pretty good, Jezic. I also probably would have answered back with my own question, "What is wrong with that?"

Person: "Because Christ is the one who forgives."

You: "And that is right, so what's the problem?"

Person: "But your confessing to a priest to forgive you of your sin."

You: "Yea, haven't you ever confessed your faults to a close friend or maybe your pastor, or mentor? And perhaps even ask them to intercede?"


That's another way I could approach it, just a suggestion. I usually enjoy asking questions back at them if they just wanna start a fight lol.