FilmGuy127 Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 [quote]Anyway I am also sick of closed minded people and I think there needs to be more respect for everybody.[/quote] I'll second that one! but i have a question that may not be exactly on topic but has something to do with this debate if anybody cares to answer it... so ive been hanging around pm for awhile off and on... and alot of the times in debates on this topic or that the argument is brought up as to what the catholic position or the church's postion on things is... there seems to be a catholic position for everything... wether it even has anything to do with faith or religion... as an example of the kind of thing im talking about look back in this thread to the debate about capatalisim... anyway so this idea of what the catholic church's position is out here alot and also i see posts that say things to the effect of to be in communion with the church, or to be a true catholic, or whatever you have to follow the church's position on these matters.. example: chuch says abortion is bad... we have to think that too... so my question is... first where does this catholic position come from, imean rome would be an obvious answer, but how does the church go about making all of these judgements about all this stuff and how am i as a catholic supposed to know about them and follow them if thats what im supposed to do? second, am i required to believe exactly as the church says on all of these things... like if i did support abortion(just an example) does that mean im not catholic anymore or what? and also to me it seems that many of these things have nothing to do with the church or the faith or anything... am i required to "take the party line" when it comes to many of these "teachings" which seem like they have nothing to do with the religion... example: the socalisim thing... i cant see how that has anything to do with christianity.... can anybody explain this to me cause at times it seems like all these views which i have to agree with exactly to be part of the church is like the church telling me exactly what to think about everything... im rather confused here. sorry that might be off topic a bit? if it is we could move it to a new thread... but i think that it has some connection to the liberal-conservative thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomProddy Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 [quote name='hyperdulia again' date='Jan 14 2005, 08:20 AM'] Ideas either affirm basic good, or they affirm basic evil. [/quote] What is the moral message of Mathematics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennypacker11 Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 [quote name='Sammy Blaze' date='Jan 15 2005, 11:30 PM'] Going back to the original post....... sometimes the bias, assumptions and pre-suppositions (politically) make my stomach turn 'round these parts. To each his own, I love everyone here and hope i treat everyone with the upmost respect.... Is there a "True Catholic Political Voice" in America? my philosophical question for the day Pax ~S. [/quote] I have come to the conclusion that a Catholic who is truly following the Church's teaching is homeless in the American political system. Following the Pope's lead in such documents as [i]Evangelium Vitae[/i] and [i]Veritatis Spledor[/i], there are strong stances against things like Abortion and liberal stances. However, there is certainly the position that we should be hesitant towards war and that the death penalty, in a society where someone can be put in jail for life w/o the danger of escape, is wrong. Also, back to original poster, I would consider myself conservative theologically but moderate politically (liberal on some issues (i.e. universal health care) and conservative on others (abortion). Also, on the abortion issue, I think that a pro-life democrat position is the wisest position for eliminating abortion. Statistically, abortions went up under Regan, and the first Bush, who had conservative fiscal policies. However, under Clinton, the number of abortions when down, even though he supported abortion rights (stats for George W. aren't out). Also, looking at South America, The US, and Europe, S.A. has the strongest laws against abortion and Europe has the least. HOwever, Europe has the strongest social infrastructure (universal healthcare) and S.A. has the worst (US is in the middle on both). S.A., dispite its laws, has the highest abortion rate of the 3, and a country like the Netherlands, with little or no restrictions, has the lowest abortion rate. Now, this is not an argument for pro-choice democrats. We must oppose abortion. HOwever, presidents always talk about stopping crime, and if we really want to eliminate abortion, simply outlawing it is not enough (S.A.). We must also work for the infrastructure so that people will not feel the need to have abortions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
save ferris 101 Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 [quote name='Phatmasser777' date='Jan 15 2005, 08:08 PM'] Communism hasnt failed in China, infact by 2020, China along with India will be the Superpowers both economically and militarily. GOOD BYE U.S! [/quote] That is not true communism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomProddy Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 [quote name='Pennypacker11' date='Jan 16 2005, 09:56 PM'] Also, looking at South America, The US, and Europe, S.A. has the strongest laws against abortion and Europe has the least. HOwever, Europe has the strongest social infrastructure (universal healthcare) and S.A. has the worst (US is in the middle on both). S.A., dispite its laws, has the highest abortion rate of the 3, and a country like the Netherlands, with little or no restrictions, has the lowest abortion rate. [/quote] I think treating Europe with one brush like this is a bit misleading. Putting the Netherlands, the UK, Ireland (both Eire and the province) and Malta in the same basket isin't accurate. The UK, for example, has stricter laws on abortion that the US (before 24 weeks, two doctors have to agree on it and it has to be for "social" or medical reasons. After that, it's if the mum's life is in danger or the baby is badly disabled. I don't agree with our abortion law, but it's stricter than that of the US). Ireland has probably the strictest law on Abortion in all the English-speaking world. Malta has Banned it and just joined the EU. The Netherlands... well, you know, crazy demented people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 i hate capitalism and socialism. i just think that is possible to be a capitalist following Church Teaching while it is not possible to be a socialist following Church teaching. my dad owns his own company, and as far as I can tell he's a good small-business man who provides for his workers as well as he ought and really does everything fairly. he's still a capitalist, and he's still pretty successful, but he's not out there "steppin on the little guy" or bein greedy. he's a capitalist who follows Church Teaching in this regard (though i'm not sure if he realizes he is following Church Teaching, at least in this area I think he does.) However, a socialist automatically is receiving what is not justly theirs from a government that took it from someone else. a socialist must abandon all private property even though people ought to own their own things according to Catholic Teaching. you can be a good capitalist and still follow Church Teaching. you cannot be a good socialist and still follow Church Teaching. capitalism is a bad system, but we as Catholics cannot join in the efforts of the biggest group against capitalism because sed group wants to destroy the Church for the same reasons it wants to destroy capitalism. I am convinced that the only economic systems we should support are either distributism or fuedalism, perhaps there's another that hasn't been invented yet or was lost from some ancient civilization that could work, but until someone figures out another way those are my only two options. and there's no way the world's going back to feudalism, but distributism could actually practically work in the modern world after workin out a few of it's kinks from being lost for so long. anyway, distributism all the way! no socialism, that includes government sponsered healthcare. it takes away the person's right to his own private property. healthcare is not the job of the state, it must be made available to all but the state controlling people is just another way to make people too dependent on it drifting into disguised slavery/serfdom. if you're in capitalism, you have to make the effort to do good because it's not promoted, meaning in a sense that Capitalism is evil insomuch as it does not promote good but rather promotes indifference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennypacker11 Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 [quote name='RandomProddy' date='Jan 16 2005, 04:05 PM'] I think treating Europe with one brush like this is a bit misleading. Putting the Netherlands, the UK, Ireland (both Eire and the province) and Malta in the same basket isin't accurate. The UK, for example, has stricter laws on abortion that the US (before 24 weeks, two doctors have to agree on it and it has to be for "social" or medical reasons. After that, it's if the mum's life is in danger or the baby is badly disabled. I don't agree with our abortion law, but it's stricter than that of the US). Ireland has probably the strictest law on Abortion in all the English-speaking world. Malta has Banned it and just joined the EU. The Netherlands... well, you know, crazy demented people [/quote] That is very true, but I still think that my general point, strong social infrastructure=decline in abortion rates. The problem with our two party american system is that we don't have a party which both opposes abortion and supports the type of policies that have been shown to decrease the actual abortion rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomProddy Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 [quote name='Pennypacker11' date='Jan 16 2005, 11:46 PM'] That is very true, but I still think that my general point, strong social infrastructure=decline in abortion rates. The problem with our two party american system is that we don't have a party which both opposes abortion and supports the type of policies that have been shown to decrease the actual abortion rate. [/quote] You could be onto something. For example, looking at my region in Northern England. It has the highest teenage birth rate in Western Europe. Paradoxically, it has some of the lowest abortion rates. Among the reasons given for it are that 1/ Churchgoing attendances in the north-east are the highest in Britain here. 2/ social systems here are comprehensive and well-used. 3/ There isn't as much stigma as in the rest of Britain for out-of-wedlock babies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
save ferris 101 Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 I'm sorry guys, but the American form of government is the best that we humans have come up with yet. Don't even give me fuedalism, that was back when agriculture was the staple of the economy. It wouldn't work now. Socialism/ communism, except for China, which isn't pure socialism or communism, has been shown to not work. It would be really really great to have something like communism/anarchy/socialism, because in theory they are the best governments, but that is without humans in the equation. It will never work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 i mentioned feudalism wouldn't work anymore, i said there are only two that I could think of and feudalism is basically eliminated anyway. btw, these are economic systems. capitalism is the baby of the Reformation. socialism is the baby of atheism. distributism is Christendom's baby, and we've been ignoring it far too long.- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomProddy Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 [quote name='save ferris 101' date='Jan 16 2005, 11:56 PM'] I'm sorry guys, but the American form of government is the best that we humans have come up with yet. [/quote] Well that's an interesting statement.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennypacker11 Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 [quote name='save ferris 101' date='Jan 16 2005, 04:56 PM'] I'm sorry guys, but the American form of government is the best that we humans have come up with yet. Don't even give me fuedalism, that was back when agriculture was the staple of the economy. It wouldn't work now. Socialism/ communism, except for China, which isn't pure socialism or communism, has been shown to not work. It would be really really great to have something like communism/anarchy/socialism, because in theory they are the best governments, but that is without humans in the equation. It will never work. [/quote] I would agree with this, and the fact is, both democrats and republicans are pushing for things within the general system (unlike Libertarians/Communists). However, as I have noted already, those economic policies supported by the democrats have a better chance of "fighting crime" (reducing abortions) when coupled with a consistent fight against the legalization of abortion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 u do know we modeled it after Rome & Greece & the Greek Philosophers and then some guys that agreed with those people and put it into modern terms, right? it's not like there's been any truly original ideas surfacing in the centuries since Christendom's demise. <if you can't tell, i don't ascribe to a "progressive" view of history i'm more medieval lookin at us as if we're the remnants of a once great civilization and not the improvements upon a backwards civilization> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennypacker11 Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 [quote name='Pennypacker11' date='Jan 16 2005, 05:03 PM'] I would agree with this, and the fact is, both democrats and republicans are pushing for things within the general system (unlike Libertarians/Communists). However, as I have noted already, those economic policies supported by the democrats have a better chance of "fighting crime" (reducing abortions) when coupled with a consistent fight against the legalization of abortion. [/quote] Also, I think that it is worth noting that there is no 'perfect' political system on this side of Christ's return. Whether we are talking capitalism, socialism, anarchism, etc, SIN will always corrupt. However, some systems are better than others (a moderated capitalism seems to be most in line w/ Church teaching) and we should work for these with the knowledge that there is no perfect system which cannot be corrupted by sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathqat Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 [quote name='Pennypacker11' date='Jan 16 2005, 02:56 PM'] I have come to the conclusion that a Catholic who is truly following the Church's teaching is homeless in the American political system. [/quote] I think that's an understatement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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