Political slant and being Catholic...

[cathqat]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jan 15 2005, 05:20 PM'] free-market "capitalism" has provided more wealth for more people across the board than any other economic system. [/quote]
Even if this is true, liberal capitalism, as proposed by authors like Adam Smith, is radically and fundamentally incompatible with a Catholic vision of the nature of humanity and society, because it is too individualistic and self-interested to say the least.

There's my $.02.

[Socrates]

Ranked by whom?
Of course socialist academics prefer more socialist countries.

Canada's socialized medicine is in crisis. (We are facing similar problems in the U.S. with Medicaid/Medicair etc., which is the result of socialistic policies, not capitalism!)

Scandinavia is highly over-rated. I don't know about Scandinavia in particular, but much of Europe, with its more socialistic, more government-regulated economies, has been having massive unemployment problems (significantly higher than in America.

The wealth of Canada and Western Europe comes from so-called "capitalist" free-market economic policies, not from its socialistic policies.
These are not purely socialist countries

Both America and Europe would be better off with less government interference in the economy, not more.

[Socrates]

[quote name='hyperdulia again' date='Jan 15 2005, 01:10 AM'] AND the Magisterial comments on the economy from Pius IX through John Paul II. Then take a college level economics course. Then study Magisterial statements on economics from the Early Middle Ages till Pius IX. Then, tell me that true capitalism is acceptible.

If we look at nothing other than capitalism's emphasis on personal autonomy(and there are plenty of other things to look at), we will see then that the economic system that replaced Distributist system that governed the west for most of the Christian era is evil. Neutrality does not exist. Capitalism is what left Europe hobbled enough in the first place for Socialism in its many forms to take over. And pan-socialsim (as zionism, as classical liberalism, etc.) is what led to the death of Christianity in Western Europe. [/quote]
I am a graduate of Christendom College (arguably the most Catholic college in the country, in which the entire faculty must take a yearly Oath of Fidelity to the Magisterium, and in which all classes are taught from an orthodox Catholic perspective.) Though not an economics major, I have taken a number of classes there on political science and economics. (A Christendom economics major would be more equipped to argue these points than myself!)

There are many very solidly Catholic political and economic thinkers who support a free-market economy (practiced within the moral framework of Christian practice). Read Eric Voegelin. Read Dante Germino. Read James V. Schall, S.J.

An economic system is not the source of morality, merely a source of production and distribution of goods. This, as the Pope has wisely pointed out, is not the ultimate end of man's existance. Without Christian morality and ethics, all systems are prone to evil, socialism just as capitalism.

And the Church has condemend Socialism (as I keep repeating.)

[Phatmasser777]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jan 15 2005, 09:42 AM'] As the old commercial said, "Reading is fundamental." [/quote]
But as I say: "Being bored isnt!"

[Phatmasser777]

[quote name='crusader1234' date='Jan 15 2005, 05:24 PM'] Since when has Socialism failed? Communism failed, but Socialism? Canada is doing great, as are the Scandanavian countries. We are all ranked consistently higher than America. [/quote]
Communism hasnt failed in China, infact by 2020, China along with India will be the Superpowers both economically and militarily.

GOOD BYE U.S!

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/L13APOST.HTM"]Pope Leo XIII[/url]:
[quote]For, "the church of the living God, which is the pillar and ground of truth,"6 hands down those doctrines and precepts whose special object is the safety and peace of society and the uprooting of the evil growth of socialism.[/quote]
[quote]Finally, all have witnessed with what solemn words and great firmness and constancy of soul our glorious predecessor, Pius IX, of happy memory, both in his allocutions and in his encyclical letters addressed to the bishops of all the world, fought now against the wicked attempts of the sects, now openly by name against the pest of socialism, which was already making headway.[/quote]
[quote]And since they know that the Church of Christ has such power to ward off the plague of socialism as cannot be found in human laws, in the mandates of magistrates, or in the force of armies, let them restore that Church to the condition and liberty in which she may exert her healing force for the benefit of all society.[/quote]
[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_01051991_centesimus-annus_en.html"]Pope John Paul II[/url]:
[quote]This is especially confirmed by the events which took place near the end of 1989 and at the beginning of 1990. These events, and the radical transformations which followed, can only be explained by the preceding situations which, to a certain extent, crystallized or institutionalized Leo XIII's predictions and the increasingly disturbing signs noted by his Successors. Pope Leo foresaw the negative consequences — political, social and economic — of the social order proposed by "socialism", which at that time was still only a social philosophy and not yet a fully structured movement. It may seem surprising that "socialism" appeared at the beginning of the Pope's critique of solutions to the "question of the working class" at a time when "socialism" was not yet in the form of a strong and powerful State, with all the resources which that implies, as was later to happen. However, he correctly judged the danger posed to the masses by the attractive presentation of this simple and radical solution to the "question of the working class" of the time — all the more so when one considers the terrible situation of injustice in which the working classes of the recently industrialized nations found themselves.[/quote]
[quote]His [Pope Leo XIII] words deserve to be re-read attentively: "To remedy these wrongs (the unjust distribution of wealth and the poverty of the workers), the Socialists encourage the poor man's envy of the rich and strive to do away with private property, contending that individual possessions should become the common property of all...; but their contentions are so clearly powerless to end the controversy that, were they carried into effect, the working man himself would be among the first to suffer. They are moreover emphatically unjust, for they would rob the lawful possessor, distort the functions of the State, and create utter confusion in the community".39 The evils caused by the setting up of this type of socialism as a State system — what would later be called "Real Socialism" — could not be better expressed.[/quote]
[quote]Continuing our reflections, and referring also to what has been said in the Encyclicals Laborem exercens and Sollicitudo rei socialis, we have to add that the fundamental error of socialism is anthropological in nature. Socialism considers the individual person simply as an element, a molecule within the social organism, so that the good of the individual is completely subordinated to the functioning of the socio-economic mechanism. Socialism likewise maintains that the good of the individual can be realized without reference to his free choice, to the unique and exclusive responsibility which he exercises in the face of good or evil. Man is thus reduced to a series of social relationships, and the concept of the person as the autonomous subject of moral decision disappears, the very subject whose decisions build the social order. From this mistaken conception of the person there arise both a distortion of law, which defines the sphere of the exercise of freedom, and an opposition to private property. A person who is deprived of something he can call "his own", and of the possibility of earning a living through his own initiative, comes to depend on the social machine and on those who control it. This makes it much more difficult for him to recognize his dignity as a person, and hinders progress towards the building up of an authentic human community.[/quote]

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Phatmasser777' date='Jan 15 2005, 09:08 PM'] GOOD BYE U.S! [/quote]
:fluffy air extraction:

[Socrates]

[quote name='Phatmasser777' date='Jan 15 2005, 08:08 PM'] Communism hasnt failed in China, infact by 2020, China along with India will be the Superpowers both economically and militarily.

GOOD BYE U.S! [/quote]
China has adopted capitalistic economic practices while maintaining a tyrannical rule of government.
The Chinese government isn't stupid. It learned that capitalism worked and adopted free market economic practices to thrive economically, while maintaining the political oppression of its people and militaristic build-up.
U.S. and European trade with China fuels China's economic growth. (Proving the point that there should be some restrictions on trade - though this is not the same as Socialism.)

This will be a serious problem in the future.

If you think a world dominated by China is good thing, you'd better think again!

[Socrates]

Thanks for the papal quotes, Dude!

[hyperdulia again]

"There are many very solidly Catholic political and economic thinkers who support a free-market economy (practiced within the moral framework of Christian practice)."

It is impossible for true capitalism to be so.

[Socrates]

[quote name='hyperdulia again' date='Jan 15 2005, 11:12 PM'] "There are many very solidly Catholic political and economic thinkers who support a free-market economy (practiced within the moral framework of Christian practice)."

It is impossible for true capitalism to be so. [/quote]
Says who?

[hyperdulia again]

I really don't have the time for this--not a negative statement, simply a statement of fact, I have two small children.

If I had the time I would explain what capitalism really boils down to (with quotes from Locke, et al, and examples from our on economic structures). I would then do my best to explain why twentiieth century capitalism went un-condemned (it was a lesser evil than communism, and the Church could ill-afford to alienate the US [and the Vatican has always feared that North American Catholicsc were more North American than Catholic--ie that they'd listen to their gove before their church] ). Then I would take the pertinent conciliar and papal statements on how the state should function and contrast them with the reality of capitalism. One can build a morally just system and call it capitalism, but I simply don't believe caitalism as understood by most is a just system. I'm not trying to be provocative or to offend, but I would really advise everyone to look deeper. Look more deeply at what the Pope has said about capitalism and remove the diplomacy. Look carefully at the way capitalism functions in both theory and fact. Look more deeply into the Gospels. I simply don't have the wit to cohesively make the case, but it is there.

[Sammy Blaze]

Going back to the original post.......
sometimes the bias, assumptions and pre-suppositions (politically) make my stomach turn 'round these parts.
To each his own, I love everyone here and hope i treat everyone with the upmost respect....

Is there a "True Catholic Political Voice" in America?
my philosophical question for the day

Pax
~S.

[journeyman]

[quote name='hyperdulia again' date='Jan 15 2005, 11:28 PM'] I really don't have the time for this--not a negative statement, simply a statement of fact, I have two small children.

If I had the time I would explain what capitalism really boils down to (with quotes from Locke, et al, and examples from our on economic structures). I would then do my best to explain why twentiieth century capitalism went un-condemned (it was a lesser evil than communism, and the Church could ill-afford to alienate the US [and the Vatican has always feared that North American Catholicsc were more North American than Catholic--ie that they'd listen to their gove before their church] ). Then I would take the pertinent conciliar and papal statements on how the state should function and contrast them with the reality of capitalism. One can build a morally just system and call it capitalism, but I simply don't believe caitalism as understood by most is a just system. I'm not trying to be provocative or to offend, but I would really advise everyone to look deeper. Look more deeply at what the Pope has said about capitalism and remove the diplomacy. Look carefully at the way capitalism functions in both theory and fact. Look more deeply into the Gospels. I simply don't have the wit to cohesively make the case, but it is there. [/quote]
Would you recommend any readings other than those Apotheon and Dude provided?

I tend to agree that as practiced, capitalism has a remarkable tendency to bring out the worst in people . . . but that is people, not economic systems . . . part of the reason capitalism has appeal as a theory is beause (so long as there is balance), it works

American capitalism is not "pure" capitalism . . . there is government all over the place, even if we're not sure they are doing their job (FDA, EPA, FAA, ICC, FDIC etc etc) . . . or what their job is . . . part of what they perceive as their job is to impose balance - business calls it interference, consumers call it public safety

It is the alternatives to capitalism that scare me . . . I'm not sure I would trust myself with the power to decide who makes what, and how much (or if at all) . . . and I sure don't trust anybody else

which is why the manufacturers/distributors/retailers and consumers need to be motivated by something other that money . . . all money should be used for is keeping track . . . not for keeping score (that's part of the balance problem)

[Micheal5403]

[quote]So yeah, any other left-leaning Catholics in here who are sick of this? Or for the sake of equality, Conservative Catholics who are sick of the slander from the left? Why can't we put our religion before our political leanings. I am Catholic first, Democrat Second. So why should any of you see me as lower than you because of my political leanings? Because I'm open minded? It's that close-minded attitude of 'Catholics are to be Conservative or else Fraudulent'. This is an attitude I've seen a lot at Phatmass...and it is what turned me away from the faith half a year ago. Now I'm giving it a second shot. Please just respect me as your brother[/quote]

I think we're a little off topic; what did it have to do with capitalism? Anyway I am also sick of closed minded people and I think there needs to be more respect for everybody.